Slinging.org Forum - Cestrosphendone

Curious Aardvark Forum Moderation Offline Taller than the average Dwarf Posts: 13965 Midlands England Gender:	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #255 - Apr 26^th, 2007 at 11:38am Ah hem - nah de na de nah nah :-) lmao
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Dale

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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #256 - Apr 26^th, 2007 at 4:19pm

You will notice that P.W. said you could either have notches, or not ... SO THERE!

And nevermind that he said it works better WITH. Wink

The instructions I've seen for French arrows all specified shorter than three feet for the arrows, and either a groove around the shaft or a notch cut in the shaft. I tried making one of those once and I could not get it to work. Your spears of four to five feet length, make a lot more sense to me. Atlatls are used with spears of five to six feet length; folks have had thousands of years to play around and figure out what length works best.

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DuckofDeath

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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #257 - Apr 29^th, 2007 at 3:13am

Dale wrote on Apr 24^th, 2007 at 2:59pm:

(Do I have my Greek right? The kestrosphendone (κεστροσφενδονι) was the arrow-thrower, the kestros (κεστρος) was the arrow?)

Polybius has a somewhat different description, recorded in the Wikipedia article on slings. He describes a kestros as being two cubits overall (about 90 cm or 36 inches), consisting of an iron point and tube, with a wooden shaft of 2 spans (one cubit) fitted into the tube.

In the Greek spelling, I believe the final iota should actually be an eta. The "two cubit" business is a mistranslation; I read a commentary on the text which pointed out that the translator had made "nonsense" of the description by translating the Greek word for "palm" as "cubit."

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Dale Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Posts: 1581 California, USA Gender:	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #258 - Apr 29^th, 2007 at 2:08pm Thank you for the spelling correction, DuckOfDeath! Now about measures: A cubit is basically fingertip-to-elbow, and a span is a half-cubit (also the measure from pinky-tip to thumb-tip when the hand is stretched as wide as possible). What is a palm? The width of the hand, not counting the thumb?
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DuckofDeath Junior Member Offline Posts: 84	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #259 - Apr 30^th, 2007 at 3:22am The palm is equal to four digits or fingerbreadths; there are six palms to the cubit.
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Dale

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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #260 - Apr 30^th, 2007 at 8:03pm

OK, so if a cubit is about 18 inches, then a span (half-cubit) is 9 inches, and a palm (a third of a span) is 3 inches.

This actually makes Polybius's description the same as Livy's description. The same length for the wood (a span) and the iron head is 2 palms, not 2 cubits. I guess the Wikipedia article needs fixing: they quoted the wrong translator.

And if you go all the way back to the beginning of this topic, Hondero quoted somebody that translated it right. The dart is about 15 inches overall, and its length is about ²/₃ wood and ¹/₃ iron. This matches

Bertrand's sketch

(for which DuckOfDeath provided a citation: Alexandre Bertrand, "Le Kestre ou Kestrosphendone," Revue Archeologique, Vol. 27, 1874, pp. 73-78 and pl. II). Hondero's reconstruction looks closer to half and half.

Whew. Glad we finally got those measures straightened out. Though Hondero had it right, from the start...

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No, I don't live in a glass house.&&&&"If builders built buildings the way programmers write programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization."&&&&Context matters! "Nothing but net" is a BAD thing in tennis...

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DuckofDeath

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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #261 - May 6^th, 2007 at 12:17am

Dale wrote on Apr 30^th, 2007 at 8:03pm:

The dart is about 15 inches overall, and its length is about ²/₃ wood and ¹/₃ iron.

Actually, the illustration appears to be ³/₅ wood and ²/₅ iron, which would correspond to a 3 palm shaft attached to a 2 palm head. The translation in Hondero's first post states that the shaft was "fastened to" the head. I believe I've seen other translations, though, where half the two-palm head was a tube or socket into which the shaft was inserted, so if a palm length of shaft was inserted into the socket, the dart would be a foot long, half wood, half iron.

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DuckofDeath Junior Member Offline Posts: 84	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #262 - Jun 19^th, 2007 at 1:30am Having viewed this Project Goliath article http://www.slinging.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cestrosphendon I was just wondering if any performance data are available for that configuration of the weapon?
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Curious Aardvark Forum Moderation Offline Taller than the average Dwarf Posts: 13965 Midlands England Gender:	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #263 - Jun 22^nd, 2007 at 5:53am whatever happened to the guy who used to do those illustrations ? He seemed to drop out about a year ago. Shame, they are very good.
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MammotHunter

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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #264 - Jun 28^th, 2007 at 6:35pm

Anyone ever know if someone on the boards got one of these things working? I ask because I've been away for a while. been busy with school and work and personal life and all that noise. You all know what I mean, I'm sure. I know there was talk some time ago about making one of these things, so I don't know if anyone had any success with them in my absence. From what I've read of this thread, it doesn;t look like it. So, I'm making one, now. I'll let you all know how it turns out, if, as my girlfriend fears, I don't kill myself first in the process. She has so little faith in me...

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Foolish is he who frets at night,&&And lies awake to worry'&&A weary man when morning comes,&&He finds all as bad as before&&-Excerpted from "The Havemal"

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Hondero

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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #265 - Jul 23^rd, 2007 at 1:30pm

Hi all, lot of time without writing here. I´m glad to see this subjet is alive, so I come back to it too. Have made a new reconstruction of the cestros most exact possible by following the texts of Livius and Polibius. I agree with you, DuckofDead and Dale about the interpreattion of the messures, that are more or less mine, taken from Daremberg et Saglio. The cestros had to be similar to the one of the picture. The position of the three wooden fins according Polibius is in the center of the shaft. Livius does not say anything about. This disposition is not efficient to stabilize the dart and would have to be due to the design of the sling and the way to throw. The dart would oscillate a lot, unless it left the sling very well oriented, and for that its position in the pouch must have very little inclination respect the cords. The free end behind the fins would be by reasons for attachment to the sling. All this talk into the guess of how was the sling and the way to throw, that I,ve describe dpreviously in this thread. I havn´t tried this cestros yet. Others I´ve made before were more aerodynamics.

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« Last Edit: Jul 25^th, 2007 at 2:56pm by Hondero »

He brought a conquering sword..., a shield..., a spear... , a sling from which no erring shot was discharged.&&

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Hondero Senior Member Offline Posts: 463 Madrid-SPAIN Gender:	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #266 - Jul 23^rd, 2007 at 1:49pm My post don´t match the forum window. Have to do anything?
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english Ex Member	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #267 - Jul 23^rd, 2007 at 2:00pm That's a beautiful piece of ammunition. It would be nice to see Livius vindicated - I hope it works well.
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Hondero Senior Member Offline Posts: 463 Madrid-SPAIN Gender:	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #268 - Jul 27^th, 2007 at 8:34am Quote: That's a beautiful piece of ammunition. It would be nice to see Livius vindicated - I hope it works well. Thanks english, yesterday I´ve tried it and it really works! At first the dart oscillate a little but soon it takes a straight flight. The range and accuracy is good, almost like a stone.
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lobohunter Interfector Viris Spurii Offline where be a rock and a string there be a sling Posts: 1985 Cottage Grove or Gender:	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #269 - Jul 29^th, 2007 at 3:16pm nice work Hondero. hmmm wonder how that would be with a nice hunting broad head on it
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