Slinging.org Forum - Cestrosphendone

DuckofDeath Junior Member Offline Posts: 84	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #270 - Aug 1^st, 2007 at 1:26pm Hondero wrote on Jul 27^th, 2007 at 8:34am: Thanks english, yesterday I´ve tried it and it really works! At first the dart oscillate a little but soon it takes a straight flight. The range and accuracy is good, almost like a stone. So what kind of sling are you using and what kind of ranges are you attaining?
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SnapCut

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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #271 - Aug 12^th, 2007 at 11:17am

Hondero wrote on Jun 15^th, 2006 at 4:04pm:

Finally I´ve got the Arms &Armour journal with the article on cestros by G. M. Hollenback

. Based only on the Polibius text, he present a new hypothesis of the cestros sling, since on the dart there are almost no doubts and both authors, Livy and Polibius agree in its description. Acording to Hollenback, the sling could be a simple thong that was fitted below the fins of the dart, as it is seen in the photo. There is also a loop or band so that the shaft end passes through it and the dart don´t slip out during the whirl (this is common in all reconstructions since it is the only reason to place the fins in the middle of the shaft, sacrificing the stability of the flight).
Although I had tried without success this solution some years ago, I´ve made a new cestros with the proper measurements and with the Hollenback fins special shape, and tried it again. Unfortunately, the results were deficient one more time. Sometimes the design works and others not, that is to say, it is quite uncontrollable since the dart has tendency to clog between the cords or to release erratically due to the strong friction of the retention cord on the fin. This causes that the design of the fin is very critic, needing a very exact curvature, and that the material of the thong and the polish of the fin influences much in the success of the release. In addition, the design works well only for a mid power, but throwing with high power the dart is clogged between the cords or leaves erratic. Another disadvantage is that it works only underhand, and the author notices it. This last fact should have been enough for the author to realize that the design is erroneous, since a expensive missile as the cestros was not only to be used like massive rain of projectiles, that is for which serves the underhand style. On the other hand the Hollenback interpretation of Polibius text is a little forced so that it agrees with his design. I think that if Polibius had wanted to describe this design, he had done it in a different way as how he did it Roll Eyes

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I think I find unlikely that the Greeks used this design. They were excellent slingers and very efficient constructors of weapons.

Sorry if I repeat something that might already have been said but I only have time to skim now. In the photo the cord is wraped around the dart pretty good but what if it only and just looped over the first fin?

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A SLING IS SO MANY WONDERFUL THINGS

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Hondero Senior Member Offline Posts: 463 Madrid-SPAIN Gender:	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #272 - Aug 13^th, 2007 at 2:02pm lobohunter wrote on Jul 29^th, 2007 at 3:16pm: nice work Hondero. hmmm wonder how that would be with a nice hunting broad head on it Terrible, sure
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Hondero

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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #273 - Aug 13^th, 2007 at 2:16pm

DuckofDeath wrote on Aug 1^st, 2007 at 1:26pm:

Hondero wrote on Jul 27^th, 2007 at 8:34am:

Thanks english, yesterday I´ve tried it and it really works! At first the dart oscillate a little but soon it takes a straight flight. The range and accuracy is good, almost like a stone.

So what kind of sling are you using and what kind of ranges are you attaining?

The sling is that of
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1074713443/150

My range with the cestros is about 100 or 120 meters, but with a stone I can´t attaing much more distance. My shoulder don´t work very well Sad

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Hondero Senior Member Offline Posts: 463 Madrid-SPAIN Gender:	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #274 - Aug 13^th, 2007 at 2:24pm [quote author=SnapCut link=1074713443/270#271 date=1186931877 Sorry if I repeat something that might already have been said but I only have time to skim now. In the photo the cord is wraped around the dart pretty good but what if it only and just looped over the first fin? I think the dart would slip if looped only over a fin.
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DuckofDeath Junior Member Offline Posts: 84	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #275 - Oct 19^th, 2007 at 2:14am ttt
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Hondero Senior Member Offline Posts: 463 Madrid-SPAIN Gender:	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #276 - Oct 22^nd, 2007 at 4:38pm I´ve put a short video in you tube. Don´know if it can be seen well, I have problems with you tube and my camera is very simple. Stoping the pictures at the right moment it can be seen the dart well oriented ahead. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp5GLqziCRk Saludos a todos, Hondero
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axon50 Senior Member Offline Dein Schleuder baut auf Ihnen. Posts: 334 nz Gender:	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #277 - Oct 23^rd, 2007 at 12:44am very interesting....... an amazingly anoying wep for the oponent i imagine....... cool
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Curious Aardvark Forum Moderation Offline Taller than the average Dwarf Posts: 13965 Midlands England Gender:	Re: Cestrosphendon Reply #278 - Oct 23^rd, 2007 at 2:27pm now that's interesting, also good little video clip. All the info in the post suggests you rest the dart between two points but your video shows it hanging just from the end. So how's it work ?
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Hondero

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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #279 - Oct 23^rd, 2007 at 5:15pm

[quote author=curious_aardvark link=1074713443/270#278 date=1193164056]now that's interesting, also good little video clip. All the info in the post suggests you rest the dart between two points but your video shows it hanging just from the end. So how's it work ? [/quote]

The dart is placed between the little pouch and the little loop for the tail, but really the weight rest mainly on the pouch, and the position is almost vertical or very little inclined, so that the cords not entangle. At the release, the point slip on the pouch and the dart goes out ahead.

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DuckofDeath

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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #280 - Nov 8^th, 2007 at 1:44am

Hondero wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2007 at 4:38pm:

I´ve put a short video in you tube. Don´know if it can be seen well, I have problems with you tube and my camera is very simple. Stoping the pictures at the right moment it can be seen the dart well oriented ahead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp5GLqziCRk

Saludos a todos,
Hondero

Congrats on what as far as I know is the first video of a cestrosphendone in action. It looked like the dart laterally fishtailed a bit before disappearing from view. Do you get consistent sticks when you cast?

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Hondero

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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #281 - Nov 10^th, 2007 at 1:58pm

[quote author=DuckofDeath link=1074713443/270#280 date=1194504259
Congrats on what as far as I know is the first video of a cestrosphendone in action. It looked like the dart laterally fishtailed a bit before disappearing from view. Do you get consistent sticks when you cast? [/quote]

The cast in the video was not good, really. It was the first time I came back to the cestros after a lot of time and the dart was not well made. I promise better videos soon.
At present I have some time to dedicate to the subject and my aim is to definitively unravel the secrets that still remains on the cestros. Although the design I´ve sown in the thread works very well, there are others ways to throw the dart that I´ll show and comment here, specially the few ones that have been published in archaeological magazines. Besides, the texts of Livius and Plybius still remains partly enigmatic and requires to retake their analysis reconsidering the key words and their meaning in other similar texts.
In addition to this “linguistic” investigation will be necessary an approach by others ways. One is the logical and practical sense, that implies a good experience and knowledge of the sling, that sometimes lacks in the published works and translations of the classic texts. I´ve read funny things like throwing the cestros spinning the sling counterclockwise in vertical style. This is so ineffective and foolish as to do it in horizontal style. Other funny anecdote comes from Walbank, F.W. in his “Comentary on Polibius” (1979), where he say that the romans also used the cestros and point out as a proof of it a text of Dionisius of Halicarnaso describing the romans throwing “caltrops” with the sling. Walbank mixed up both missiles only by the simple fact that they are iron made and throwed by a sling. It´s necessary then to be critical with authors and translators, who sometimes are not trustworthy.
Other approach to the cestros, and the main of all, is experimental archaeology, namely to try all possible designs and ways of throwing. The best of all them is very possible that was the one used in antiquity. Then will be the moment for returning to the classic texts and see if the design match with them.
The point from we start the approach is that we know how was the dart but there are still some confusion about the sling to throw it. To find the solution is a matter of imagination and tests, the classic trial and error method.
Next post will be on the different designs and ways to throw the cestros

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Hondero

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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #282 - Nov 18^th, 2007 at 3:07pm

DYNAMICS OF THE CESTROS- NOTES

Although three centuries previous to Roman plumbata, the cestros is similar to it as much in their aspect as in their dynamics. The difference is the lack of the characteristic weight of lead over the iron of the point, although the cestros point is heavier, making the double function of point and weight. The weight of both darts had to be very similar for the same length, around 120 gr. Regarding the length, the cestros corresponds to the short type of plumbata (they were from 30 cm). In fact, the cestros can be sent by hand as a plumbata and a short plumbata can be sent with sling like a cestros. The position of the centre of gravity is then essential in the design of the cestros, very next to the point, given its form of impulsion. In the arrows or crossbow bolts the impulsion is made by push of the cord of the bow on the end of the shaft, and for it is advisablea a position of the centre of gravity next to the midpoint of the arrow. In the cestros the impulsion is made by inertia in the spinning, releasing the point that leans in the pouch and that then get all the weight of the dart, and for that reason it is essential that the centre of gravity is there, near the point, to avoid the dart comes out revolving. On the other hand, the stabilizing action of the fins is greater if this centre of gravity is distant of the centre of the dart, which is near the fins. Although there are different working designs of the sling to cast the cestros, and the original macedonic one is not known at the moment, all of them work with the center of gravity of the dart next to the point.
Another important aspect is the way to revolve the sling, that is a little different for the cestros. A sling loaded with a stone can revolve anyway provided it accelerates the projectile in the launching, but a dart must in addition obtain a good direction at the moment of the cast, because if not it would make oscillations and lose much energy to become stabilized. For that reason it is fundamental an ample spinning, being conscious of the correct position of the dart when throwing. Any style can be worth if we considers that point and forgot our habitual style of casting a stone. Many attempts with the cestros fail for that reason and they are attributed to the design of the sling or the dart.
Very important also it is to consider the separation of the sling cords. According to the design, they can be very separated, as in classic design of Mr. Bertrand who appears in this thread, in which there is a great risk to be entangled, reason why the spins must be limited to one, and the most advisable style is underhand with vertical spinning. In the design I use, that is an improvement of the Betrand´s one, the cords are near, like in a traditional sling, and the spinning can be made with any style and several times, although it is advisable not more than two times. I habitually throw overhand with horizontal spinning. Other working designs hold the dart not between the two pouches (escutalia) typical of Bertrand design but by the fins, and perhaps for this reason they are of wood and "firmly implanted" in the shaft. In they, the cords of the sling are also quite together and any style of launching is facilitated.
But this stuff of the different designs will be approached in the next post. (I hope my English supported on Babelfish and dictionary will be intelligible Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Nov 18^th, 2007 at 5:05pm by Hondero »

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Hondero

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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #283 - Dec 6^th, 2007 at 2:24pm

DIFFERENT WAYS TO THROW THE CESTROS.

I have evaluated the different designs of the sling to throw the cestros after having tested them thoroughly.

Design number 1 is the typical of Bertrand, already discussed in the thread. It does not work well and its main defect is that the cords are entangled. It either does not solve the problem of puncture of the point into the pouch when throwing, reason why the dart leaves turning if the opportune solutions are not adopted. I give it a score of 4 on 10. With enough certainty it was not the original Macedonian design.

Design 2 is an improvement of ds. 1 that avoids the problem of the tangle of the cords and the puncture in the pouch, and was already described in detail in the thread. I give it a score of 7.

Design 3 consists of a conventional sling, placing the dart of transversal way in the pouch. The dart is well directed when throwed but leaves revolving around its axe, what increases the air drag and reduces the range. I give it a score of 4.

Design 4 was already seen in the thread and although the dart leaves out well oriented, the cords are entangled and it is troublesome the positioning of the dart in the sling. With complete certainty it was not the design of the Macedonians, and I regret it has spread by Internet due to the splendid drawing of Johnny. I´m sorry Yurek and Johnny, my friends, but like good slingers we are we must be responsible for the diffusion of our interpretations. I hope that Johnny makes an equal splendid drawing when I finally discover the true Macedonian design and he changes it in WIKIPEDIA, Grin

.

Design 5 also has been seen in the thread, and it does not work either too much well, being very conditioned by the geometry of the wings, reason why I think it was not the Macedonian design, also because is based on a somehow mistaken interpretation of classic texts. Nevertheless it has the newness to locate the point of attachment of the dart over the fins, that as we’ll see it approaches the true solution. I give it a score of 6 points.

Design 6 is based on my lasso-sling and is the best working in spite of its simplicity, being able to send the dart with any style of spinning. I give it a score of 8, although with complete certainty was not the Macedonian design. What it is strange to me is that they did not use it being so simple and effective.

I am working in what I think is the original Macedonian design, but before describing it I’ve to verify that it works better than any other and that it matches the texts, been necessary perhaps to make a new reading and interpretation of them.

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Mordechaj Funditor Offline I love Slinging.org! Posts: 576 zagreb, croatia (europe) Gender:	Re: Cestrosphendone Reply #284 - Dec 6^th, 2007 at 4:34pm nice to see that you are still dedicated ot this project i'm not slinging for some time now, but i'm a passionate lurker, and i'm allways happy when "we" find out something new, or just refine old stuff. don't take too long to present us your latest design please waiting for summer, most probably.
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