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Cestrosphendone (Read 199116 times)
Johnny
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #75 - Sep 18th, 2004 at 6:50pm
 
Gun
Livy describes the fins being made out of fir wood. If I remember correctly!
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #76 - Sep 18th, 2004 at 6:54pm
 
But why wood? I understand the old books say to but whay not feather?
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"A Knifeless man is a lifeless man" Old Nordic Proverb
 
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Johnny
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #77 - Sep 18th, 2004 at 7:06pm
 
If you look at the old crossbow bolts from the 14th-15th centuries, you'll notice that the fletching is made of parchment. Because the bolt was so heavy, it may have took a heavier material besides feathers to keep the projectile steady. You've got me curious, I'll try to look this up in my vast library!!
Johnny
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Dan_Bollinger
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #78 - Sep 18th, 2004 at 7:57pm
 
Concerning measurements, I copied this from my notes:

So, the length of the dart or Kestros is, according to:

Polybius: 2 palms (~6") + 1 span (~9") = ~15"
Livy: 2 palms (~6") + ½ cubit (~9") = ~15"
Hawkins: ½ elle = 15"

Hondero, I added the point dimensions under the photo. The longest one is 15 cm as Polybius says. Then again, maybe his 'palm' was smaller?  Wink

Johnny, Sorry, I don't want to take on another project!

Gun, Livy said the fins were made from firwood.

Crossbow bolts of the era were also about 15" in length.  It is likely, I think, that the Kestros is derived from the bolts used for the gastraphetes (belly bow). Slingers would have had access to bowmen.

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« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2004 at 8:44am by Dan_Bollinger »  
 
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Matthias
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #79 - Sep 19th, 2004 at 2:24pm
 
Oooooh those are pretty... Nice work Dan! Looking forward to the full report.

Matthias
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Johnny
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #80 - Sep 20th, 2004 at 2:21pm
 
Have you got those pics ready!!!!
Let us know how it performs.
Johnny
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #81 - Sep 20th, 2004 at 8:01pm
 
Here is the Kestros sling I made for my reconstruction. It has 'two thongs of unequal length'.  However, both are released at the same time. The ancient description says 'one thong releases the dart.'  I'm going to rebraid the sling and try releasing just the shorter thong.  I painted the wood flourescent pink to keep from loosing the darts.
...
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« Last Edit: Sep 25th, 2004 at 1:31pm by Dan_Bollinger »  
 
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #82 - Sep 25th, 2004 at 1:32pm
 
bump
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Gun
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #83 - Sep 25th, 2004 at 3:43pm
 
I have you thrown it yet? How well does it fly?
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Johnny
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #84 - Sep 25th, 2004 at 7:28pm
 
I don't see the thongs of unequal length. Hmmm... It's an interesting concept. How does it work? I think Hondero's version is closer to Livy's description. I think your darts are the best. We need to conduct many tests with all the designs.
Johnny
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #85 - Sep 25th, 2004 at 8:08pm
 
Gun, see my preliminary tests on the previous page.

Johnny, The thong holding the point is shorter than the other one. That's why the dart is tilted upward.

This is a requirement and not arbitrary, by the way. I did some tests. if the dart is tossed with a sling of equal lengths it falls out of the sling during the throw. Tilting the dart moves it center of  mass and keeps it in the sling until released.
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Hondero
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #86 - Sep 26th, 2004 at 2:47am
 
Humm... that´s a peculiar interpretation of the sling, with a big splited pouch to hold the dart, quite similar to the Yurek´s first one. I remember I said then that being  the cords so separate they could be tangled when hurling. Lastly Yurek changed to other interesting designe that hold the dart by its gravity center, like the solution used by David Engeval. But I think all these designes don´t match the Livius descriptions, that in other hand is not evident, with even that word "scutalia" that some authors translate like "leather pouch"  and others like "leather strap", being in both cases a thong, short or longer.

But apart from the historical reconstruction, an efficient designe has to be tested exhaustively. I´ve thrown the cestro maybe a thousand times before arriving to my last sling designe, improving many details, though the basic designe has ever been the same, based on two diferents pouches for holding the point and the tail of the dart. Finally I´m fully satisfied with the results, but don´t exclude others solutions, though my experience tell me that one must follow the ancients and theirs well tested designes on the battlefields.
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #87 - Oct 2nd, 2004 at 3:33am
 
Excuse my ignorance about kestros, Just using my common sense  i find Hondero's design more reliable, but i'll make a change just to see how it works....  Why not try to make the back end of the shaft hole the release cord instead of the point arrow? this will low pressure of the point at the leather pouch and  a smoother launching... besides arrow would have to spin on it's back side adding some momentum at the releasing time...  anyway fins will stabilice arrow point forward in a few ,
Can anyone of the "cestrosphendoners" try this?
what do you think?
I would make it but i need to start from scratch making the arrows and so.... so for me it's a long term project.
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #88 - Oct 5th, 2004 at 9:26am
 
O. k what hurling styles are the other "cestrosphendoners" using I am at the moment using an under hand and am not very impressed with my distance not that I have much control yet. Yesterday morning was the first time I got to open up and see any
distance. I took my "toys" out to the beach bright and early but to my surprise was only achieving 60- 70 yards
distance granted at 40-50 yards the darts really slam into my target  using over hand or under hand. now with the under hand I had way to much height every time. so that could be lowered and probably gain me some distance
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #89 - Oct 6th, 2004 at 1:36pm
 
Quote:
..  Why not try to make the back end of the shaft hole the release cord instead of the point arrow? this will low pressure of the point at the leather pouch and  a smoother launching...


That would be a solution, but the dart would be placed in the sling almost horizontal to not slip out in the hurling, and this have the problem of the separations of the thongs and the posible tangle.
There are several ways of throwing the cestros more or less effectives, but the interesting thing to me is finding the original macedonian one, that was described by Polibius and Livy without much succes  Grin.
If  someone could translate Greek in the forum we could detail some doubtful aspects of the weapon, as the text of Polibius is the interesting one. Livius translate badly Polibius text and morover the manuscripts that has arrived to us are deteriorated and with confused words.

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« Last Edit: Oct 7th, 2004 at 12:53am by Hondero »  

He brought a conquering sword..., a shield..., a spear... , a sling from which no erring shot was discharged.&&
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