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full force sling tag ammo design assumptions (Read 436 times)
tekfibrx
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full force sling tag ammo design assumptions
Apr 29th, 2026 at 9:56am
 
I wanna help the community along by designing ammo that has better balistics than tennis balls when playing sling tag . Taking a fraction of the forces involved in paintball to target the impact pressure of sling ammo seems like a reasonable approach to me.

According to this http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/webproj/211_fall_2014/Dillon_Mills/dillon_mills/Impa...
the impact pressure of a paintball fired at point blank range is about 6.6MPa.  (1.549kN/(2.343•10^-4 m^2)≈6.613MPa) and drops off to a bit under 5MPa at 100m distance.

Assuming people are top slingers and can shoot at 50m/s .

target density is that of dry clay or 1,6g/cm^3 according to engineering toolbox. https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/dirt-mud-densities-d_1727.html

assuming a brass core at a density of 8,4g/cm^3 and varioshore TPU  as the padding at between 1,2g/cm^2 of no foaming and ,6g/cm^2 at 100 foaming

planned construction would be to 3d print the padding using varioshore tpu https://colorfabb.com/varioshore-tpu and to lock in the core (some type of bushing or cut tubing to make it easy to replicate)  by using a interrupt on the print so that the core can be inserted and sealed away.
to test the ammo ill build a pnumatic launcher and take high speed footage of some impacts.

from here on out itll be a exercise in geometry and gcode manipulation but before i start designing i would like to hear you guy's thoughts on this plan
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swiftcreek
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Re: full force sling tag ammo design assumptions
Reply #1 - Apr 29th, 2026 at 3:56pm
 
Intriguing idea. Unfortunately I know of only one other slinger near me but there are places with enough slingers for a dodgeball/tag game.
I think having the target density near that of dry clay is a good idea. If it is too dense it will hurt regardless of the padding. Probably could go less depending on how it actually throws in real life.
Tennis ball speed/trajectory is significantly impacted by the drag from the fuzz which is beneficial in circumstances like this where you dont want to throw too fast or too far. However the fuzz also interacts with the pouch and can cause slight inconsistencies in release timing. A smooth projectile with a weighted core and padding on the outside could replicate some of the air resistance without the negative of inconsistent release.
What dimensions are you envisioning? Overall weight?Round/ball shaped as opposed to biconical/oblong i presume.
  Do you know how strong the varioshore tpu is? I could definitely see forceful hits against hard surfaces causing the padding to rupture and the center weight to come out.
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tekfibrx
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Re: full force sling tag ammo design assumptions
Reply #2 - Apr 29th, 2026 at 5:57pm
 
im actually leaning towards bicone instead of a ball the aerodynamics mean that there is only really 2 impact point to worry about which makes the padding more economical as opposed to a ball which has to be padded equally in all directions.

as for dimensions those are determined by the mass of the projectile for example a 80g projectile has a volume of 50cm3 (80g/1,6g•cm-3=50 cm3) .

plugging half that into this tool https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/cone-volume and play with the numbers to see what aproximate size is possible under the volume constraint.
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Snow Serg
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Re: full force sling tag ammo design assumptions
Reply #3 - Apr 30th, 2026 at 1:08am
 
I was conducting an experiment with biconic projectiles. They are made of fabric and leather. I made three of these leather balls. The weight is about 70-80 grams and one 120 grams. You definitely can't throw them at people like that, even in defense. Such projectiles easily penetrate a plywood target.

https://rutube.ru/video/cd752d43bb646e0b319c578b2c320984/ ;

You can throw projectiles at people no tougher than tennis balls and they must be round. A biconic projectile with its tip will cause injury. It is more convenient to throw a round ball-you do not need to center the projectile. Since you need to charge without looking and very quickly. A biconic requires precise alignment in the sling.

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Snow Serg
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Re: full force sling tag ammo design assumptions
Reply #4 - Apr 30th, 2026 at 1:15am
 
https://rutube.ru/video/d84d20a1ab24a1cfe8d9469f259898fb/

In this video, we are playing ASB-An antique shooting battle.  At the end of the video, a tennis ball hits my head. The ball bent my helmet and I got a bruise)). If it were a biconic leather shell weighing 70-80 grams. The helmet would definitely not have held up. And I could easily have had my head smashed in. It is also dangerous to hit the temple and throat. They are very difficult to cover with a helmet.
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swiftcreek
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Re: full force sling tag ammo design assumptions
Reply #5 - Apr 30th, 2026 at 12:53pm
 
Yes these are precisely the reasons I was expecting a ball shape. Personally i wouldnt want to be hit full force by anything much heavier than a tennis ball which is around 55g+.
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« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2026 at 1:07am by swiftcreek »  

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Snow Serg
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Re: full force sling tag ammo design assumptions
Reply #6 - Apr 30th, 2026 at 2:03pm
 
Tennis balls are different in weight. Now there are balls for children and beach tennis balls.Their weight is 35 grams. They are great for shooting people with a sling.But they are too light, and they quickly lose their speed. It is more difficult to hit the target with them than with a standard tennis ball that weighs 55-58 grams.
We have experimentally determined that it is important to keep a distance of at least 10 meters. At this distance, a standard tennis ball flies well, but it still loses some of its energy and does not become so dangerous. We use bigger playgrounds and it's safer to play on them.

But the main thing is to use good protection: head and groin. It is advisable to use additional shields to protect the throat area. Iron fencing masks are the best protection. They completely protect the head from all sides and the throat.
The only disadvantage of a fencing mask is that it makes it harder to breathe.
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tekfibrx
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Re: full force sling tag ammo design assumptions
Reply #7 - Apr 30th, 2026 at 2:10pm
 
Snow Serg wrote on Apr 30th, 2026 at 1:08am:
I was conducting an experiment with biconic projectiles. They are made of fabric and leather. I made three of these leather balls. The weight is about 70-80 grams and one 120 grams. You definitely can't throw them at people like that, even in defense. Such projectiles easily penetrate a plywood target.

https://rutube.ru/video/cd752d43bb646e0b319c578b2c320984/ ;

You can throw projectiles at people no tougher than tennis balls and they must be round. A biconic projectile with its tip will cause injury.


Clearly you've been slinging longer than me but im quite certain of my kinematics so let me try to explain why i think this bicone can still work. The amount of damage a projectile can inflict on a target comes down to mass, acceleration, and contact area.
Because Force=mass•acceleration and Pascall = force/area.
Pascalls are not just pressure but also a unit of stress and stress is what causes things to break. So in order to prevent our friends from being the thing that breaks we'll have to either decrease the force or increase the contact area.
Tennis balls do the latter, i want to do the former.
By making the projectile have a soft shell like a crash mat and a crumple zone like a car the acceleration will be slowed down and with that the peak force and pressure as well.

The total amount of energy transferred to the target will as also be decreased because the air inside the projectile will heat up from compression and energy is conserved but thats a thermodynamics problem and thats not my strong suit.
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Snow Serg
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Re: full force sling tag ammo design assumptions
Reply #8 - Apr 30th, 2026 at 2:34pm
 
I tried to run a test between tennis balls and biconical ones. Unfortunately, I didn't feel any difference in the result. Yes, biconic balls fly more straight. But the problem of centering the biconic ball negates the whole result.
Throwing biconical balls at people is definitely more dangerous than round ones. And I personally really like the idea of making biconic balls for shooting at a Balearic target. But you need to make some kind of soft target. The hard one will break from the impacts of the biconical ball. Or the balls themselves will quickly deteriorate from impacts on a hard surface.
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IronGoober
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Re: full force sling tag ammo design assumptions
Reply #9 - May 1st, 2026 at 11:52pm
 
@tekfibrx I will weigh in fully  in a few days. I think it is worth investigating
Serg has valid concerns about safety, but I think you could be right that some engineering could help decrease the danger. A biconical might enable longer distances to used as the standard to make up for the lower drag compare to a tennis ball. There are examples of even tennis balls leaving bruises, so limiting impact speed is a consideration that would have to be made.

Certainly worth experimenting with. Especially if you can make a robust biconical. Tennis balls are great because they are heap and robust, but really stink at longer ranges.
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Re: full force sling tag ammo design assumptions
Reply #10 - May 5th, 2026 at 1:33am
 
Having a crumple zone would be a good way to decrease peak force. Have you done any simulations/calculations to see what sort of layering you would need and how thick reduce force to an acceptable level. Several layers of increasing stiffness in the crumple zone might be beneficial. Another thought would be to 3d print the crumple zone to have increasing density of struts from outside to inside to try and grade the crumple zone so the force is evened out as the projectile decelerates.

Certainly something worth trying.  I wouldn't let our comments about safety discourage you from investigating it. Mainly, we just want to make sure that people don't make something, think it's safe, and then go blast it against someone's skull without testing it in safer conditions first Smiley
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Re: full force sling tag ammo design assumptions
Reply #11 - May 5th, 2026 at 3:20am
 
Our guys constantly practice throwing at historical maneuvers and sports duels in the ASB format. We started conducting our first sparring matches in 2022. We have gained extensive practical experience, including the variety of injuries caused by regular tennis balls. Almost unanimously, we have now banned the use of tennis balls to shoot at people at historical festivals where face protection is not provided. It is easy to knock out an eye or teeth, break a nose, or even a jaw. It's scary to imagine what would happen if a person was hit hard in the throat or temple without any protection.

Спортивный формат АСБ-это дуэли с полной защитой головы, паха и многие ребята используют дополнительную защиту(область горла  и т.д.). И даже при такой защите новички которые участвуют первый раз в боях где есть опытные пращники, часто больше не приходят на наши дуэли. Несмотря на ограничения минимальной дистанции стрельбы удары теннисными мячами наносят очень чувствительные удары. Страшно даже представить какой урон может нанести биконический мячик такого же веса и плотности как теннисный.
The ASB sports format is a duel with full protection of the head, groin, and many guys use additional protection (throat area, etc.). Even with this protection, beginners who participate in duels with experienced slingers often do not come to our duels again. Despite the restrictions on the minimum shooting distance, tennis ball strikes are very painful. It is terrifying to imagine the damage that a biconical ball of the same weight and density as a tennis ball can cause.

I will repeat. The idea itself to develop biconical balls and shells for shooting at a balearic target or its analogues is very good. And we are also trying to move in this direction. But not on people. You can not shoot at people with biconical balls. Even with a weight less than a tennis ball, they can cause significant harm and cause very serious injury and even mutilation to a person.

But as a projectile for throwing 20.30 meters or more at a Balearic target, it is undoubtedly interesting and we need to move in this direction. These are my first very good biconic bullets made of fabric and leather. I took the principle of making a baseball, but with a biconical shape. I like the way they fly, but believe me, making such projectiles takes a long time and is not so easy))

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tekfibrx
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Re: full force sling tag ammo design assumptions
Reply #12 - May 5th, 2026 at 12:11pm
 
@
IronGoober 
unfortunately or simulations just yet, polymers are a pain to sim at the the best of times and it gets way harder when making 3d prints there's just too many variables.

but i do have a design ready to get printed just waiting for materials. the voids at the front and back are supposed to compress and absorb energy while the void in the middle is supposed to have a brass or steel weight inserted into it
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every mm of stretch is lost energy
 
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