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Have we hit the wall? (Read 2756 times)
Morphy
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Have we hit the wall?
Dec 16th, 2024 at 7:48am
 
So here's a question for you.

I have in the past done several posts on gauging the maximum *realistic* accuracy for the sling. And by accuracy I'm talking about your average scores over years, not temporary peaks we all have occasionally.

I cant speak for anyone else but clearly for me I've hit the wall with side arm many years ago. I can occasional have peaks that surprise me but I will never be anywhere close to bow accuracy with a side arm throw. It's just not in the cards.

So...assuming you have also hit the wall what variables can be changed if higher accuracy is the goal?

As to variables we have sling design, ammunition design and consistency, throwing style, tuning - (choosing the correct weight for your strength and sling length, best sling design for your throw and other sundries), amount of practice, and your individual level of average hand eye coordination. 

Those are the variables that come to mind right now.

Ok let's set aside sling design and ammunition. Both seem fine and aside from easily testable things like possibly lateral and torsion resistance we haven't made a ton of improvement on design over our ancestors, if at all.

Let's also dismiss the raw amount of practice. The sling is addictive to use. Amount of practice isn't the problem for any dedicated slinger.

So that leaves tuning, your indvidual average hand-eye coordination, and throwing style.

Tuning I think is a concept that needs to be explored much more. But without the feedback of tournaments it seems to end up in endless conjecture. So let's set that aside for now as a black box. Don't really have any other option at the moment.

Next is hand-eye coordination- this is surprisingly not significantly a genetic aspect. Only around 5-6% of hand-eye coordination is genetic. The rest can be trained. *However* - you've already trained it ad nauseum simply by practicing. Anyone who has slung target in a dedicated fashion for years as probably noticed their hand throwing accuracy also increases. That's your proof you've broke your brain in a good way. I imagine if the neural pathways could easily be viewed in slingers our spatial awareness portion of the brain would look like a body builder who only trains arms- really overly built in that one area.

Ok, so after all that we get to the point. Throwing style, for now is holding at least me back and I suspect most of us.

I love the phrase - "If you do what's always been done, you'll get what's always been got."

If the veritable Greek God that is Luis Pons Livermore can't reach near bow levels of accuracy with a near perfect side arm technique no one can, regardless of how many more years you throw.

So, is it worth it to you to try a radically different and less powerful throwing style to potentially reach higher accuracy? Anyways, that is where I'm at.

Any thoughts on changes we can make in slinging to break past the wall? Because I have to say, this ain't working gentlemen.  Grin
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #1 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 2:52pm
 
I am more along the lines of going for distance over accuracy, so I have not hit this said "wall" but all the points you brought up are valid, and deffinetly something to consider.
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xud9a - call me zud 👍
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #2 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 4:26pm
 
I offer homage at the altar of Mersa.
I would like to see an archer take a playing card out - edge on !
I am not worthy.
😁🐮
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erricrice
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #3 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 6:18pm
 
I haven't been slinging long enough to have hit any sort of wall or really have an opinion about this, but I've been thinking about it a lot. Tournaments are won with scores that I can accidentally hit on a good day, and sometimes wins are simply due to a "bad" day on the part of an otherwise really great thrower. Seems like there should be a bigger gap at the top end, even if only with consistency instead of pinpoint accuracy.

I often think about pitching in baseball as an analogy, but I'm not sure it's a good one. Pros can hit the strike zone(just under the size of a diana, 17in wide) at almost 20m(the mound is at 60feet 6inches) nearly 100% of the time if they take their speed down to say 60% of maximum and if they aren't trying to fake out a batter. But having neural control and feedback up to your fingertips makes a HUGE difference over having to "feel" it through 30" of cordage or simply time it based on windup speed (or a combination of the two).

It's possible we're simply not going to be able to get past this wall with the tools we've got. Just like a bow is never going to be able to outshoot a rifle no matter how good the archer.
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Morphy
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #4 - Dec 16th, 2024 at 9:13pm
 
erricrice wrote on Dec 16th, 2024 at 6:18pm:
I haven't been slinging long enough to have hit any sort of wall or really have an opinion about this, but I've been thinking about it a lot. Tournaments are won with scores that I can accidentally hit on a good day, and sometimes wins are simply due to a "bad" day on the part of an otherwise really great thrower. Seems like there should be a bigger gap at the top end, even if only with consistency instead of pinpoint accuracy.

I often think about pitching in baseball as an analogy, but I'm not sure it's a good one. Pros can hit the strike zone(just under the size of a diana, 17in wide) at almost 20m(the mound is at 60feet 6inches) nearly 100% of the time if they take their speed down to say 60% of maximum and if they aren't trying to fake out a batter. But having neural control and feedback up to your fingertips makes a HUGE difference over having to "feel" it through 30" of cordage or simply time it based on windup speed (or a combination of the two).

It's possible we're simply not going to be able to get past this wall with the tools we've got. Just like a bow is never going to be able to outshoot a rifle no matter how good the archer.



Your modesty speaks highly of you considering how deeply you're already thinking of these issues. I would add that I believe the biggest benefit the pitcher has is a rigid lever (his arm bones) rather than a flexible lever which leads to multiple problems to overcome. (Inconsistent lag angles at the pull, Inconsistent pull points, and angular momentum causing the sling to swing past the point you want (fig. 8). None of that happens with a rigid lever which is why I came up with the SemiSling.
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #5 - Dec 17th, 2024 at 6:23am
 
Morphy wrote on Dec 16th, 2024 at 9:13pm:
Your modesty speaks highly of you considering how deeply you're already thinking of these issues. I would add that I believe the biggest benefit the pitcher has is a rigid lever (his arm bones) rather than a flexible lever which leads to multiple problems to overcome. (Inconsistent lag angles at the pull, Inconsistent pull points, and angular momentum causing the sling to swing past the point you want (fig. 8). None of that happens with a rigid lever which is why I came up with

You describe something that looks like the 'old Indian" throw. Currently working on this style but it is still to early for me to give a serious opinion.

erricrice wrote on Dec 16th, 2024 at 6:18pm:
But having neural control and feedback up to your fingertips makes a HUGE difference over having to "feel" it through 30" of cordage or simply time it based on windup speed (or a combination of the two).

You are right. It's possible that we ask ourselves too many questions and we are not more "primitive" enough.
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joe_meadmaker
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #6 - Dec 17th, 2024 at 10:05pm
 
I think so (meaning I'm at a wall of sorts).  Although I know I can be better, because I've done it.  I just don't have the time to put in the needed practice.  At a few points in time I found myself at my best when I would do 3 or 4 100-Rounds a week.  I can do that for a month or so, but eventually other things in life start to get behind.

A couple other things.  There was the mention of sling accuracy as compared to a bow.  I don't think that comparison can be done, and I don't think the sling has any chance.  Stating the obvious here, but we're looking at a weapon for which the projectile is in motion (and worse, a circular motion) when it's released.  As well as the release point being somewhere between far and really far from your line of sight.  Here's a statement that could spark another conversation.  I think sling aiming is a myth.  I've heard people use the phrase 'aim small miss small' for slings.  I don't buy it.  We can obviously choose a specific point we're intending to hit, but when we think about aiming a bow or a gun, we're certainly not doing anything remotely similar when using a sling.

I think the best practice comes from introducing randomness.  We've had discussions about blocked vs random practice here more than once.  I keep telling myself I'm going to start doing some random practice sessions again, but I never do.  Especially now when the weather is crap.  Any practice gets dedicated to Channing's weekly competition.  So it's Balearic target at measured distances, and usually just once a week.  My random practice sessions were always done by starting at 13 meters, and after a target hit you sling from wherever the ball lies.  Basically walk all over the place slinging from random distances and angles.

I think there's something to say for sling use being incorporated into a regular routine (if not life in general).  I don't know if you heard Morphy.  At the last World Cup all the usual Spanish guys weren't there because the Balearic tournament was on the same weekend in Mallorca.  Pep said he was bringing in some backups, and boy did he ever.  He brought in a group of actual shepherds from southern Spain.  I have no idea what their usual daily slinging looked like, but they could sure as heck launch a stone at a target.  Unbelievably impressive.  But even those guys weren't hitting a diana with every throw.
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #7 - Dec 18th, 2024 at 1:40am
 
I've actually switched more to archery lately than slinging. I've been slinging on off for almost 3 years now, and I can safely say I'm far better than I was previously.

Though I'm finding archery a lot easier than slinging so far, even though I've only been doing it for about a week now I'm far more accurate with a bow than with a sling. I can get some good hits with a sling but struggle with consistency. Though I don't really practice that much, just when I go somewhere with a bunch of rocks.
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Rat Man
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #8 - Dec 18th, 2024 at 6:09am
 
  I believe I've tried everything that can be tried.  Yes, I've hit the proverbial wall but I'm fine with that.  My distance is good, my accuracy OK.  I can live with where I'm at now.
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Morphy
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #9 - Dec 18th, 2024 at 6:27am
 
Some really interesting points guys.

I realize in writing my initial post I was overly vague in the accuracy department when I said near bow accuracy.

So...let me define real quick. Anything from consistently on a paper plate at 20-30 meters to maybe even something like an apple at 20 meters. Let's say 75% hit rate.

A bow from an archer who has practiced with anywhere near the intensity of many of us slingers should be able to stack arrows touching each other at 20 meters. So still a big difference there but closer to bow accuracy anyways.

So while the accuracy I'm describing is certainly better than what we've seen yet, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility.

If you look at the Olympics as an example what you find is as a sport emerges from a relative simple beginning new techniques are eventually found that cause rapid increases in maximum output.

Everyone knows the story of the olympic high jump and how much one person thinking drastically outside of the box changed everything quite rapidly. But before he did it no one would've believed people would find a new way to jump of all things.

Now that's just jumping. A movement that's even more intuitive than throwing arguably. So I would respectfully contend we can do the same thing. We just need to let go of what's obviously only capable of producing a lower degree of consistency.

In a sense, we know what doesn't work, we know what works reasonably well and therefore we can now move on and try things that are outside the norm until we make some type of provable and tangible increase in accuracy.

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Morphy
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #10 - Dec 18th, 2024 at 6:28am
 
Joe-

The story of the shepherds is super cool. Wish I could've seen that. Were there any of the typical ringers from the Balaeric slinging community that held their own against them? Did one of the shepherds win?
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #11 - Dec 18th, 2024 at 6:35am
 
I throw like a girl.
Yes, I know for some that is a loaded and sexist statement but I have yet to find another way of framing it.

So if I am a crap rock thrower and a crap ball thrower what chance do I have with a sling ?

Apparently some, my accuracy is improving, erratically, but on occasions I can now hit a chosen target at 30 metres, last time with 2 out of 30 shots.

For me that is a huge achievement.

But I repeat my question.

We have video of Mersa taking a card from between 2 bottles, edge on.

Has anybody seen an archer do that ?

😁👍
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My outlook on life is Aristotalean; on seeing an Acorn I see a potential oak tree rather than Plato's view that it is a failed copy.
BE SAFE,    BE SMILEY,   BE STRANGE
 
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Morphy
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #12 - Dec 18th, 2024 at 6:39am
 
Tombelaine-

"You describe something that looks like the 'old Indian" throw. Currently working on this style but it is still to early for me to give a serious opinion."

Had quite an interesting conversation about the Apache throw with NOOC recently. I am planning on doing a test on it to see if we can prove a theory or shoot disproving it would be just as valuable in a way. But if anything comes of it expect a video on it as well.

I will say that there's something about the Apache that strikes me as a real possibility for greater accuracy. But only time will tell.
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Morphy
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #13 - Dec 18th, 2024 at 6:47am
 
xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Dec 18th, 2024 at 6:35am:
I throw like a girl.
Yes, I know for some that is a loaded and sexist statement but I have yet to find another way of framing it.

So if I am a crap rock thrower and a crap ball thrower what chance do I have with a sling ?

Apparently some, my accuracy is improving, erratically, but on occasions I can now hit a chosen target at 30 metres, last time with 2 out of 30 shots.

For me that is a huge achievement.

But I repeat my question.

We have video of Mersa taking a card from between 2 bottles, edge on.

Has anybody seen an archer do that ?

😁👍


2 out of 30 at 30 meters is no joke Zud. And also- big, big props on your straightforwadness of where you are slinging wise. I don't throw anywhere near what some of these guys do in terms of power but there is something for everyone with the sling.

As to your question let me start out by saying I've never met anyone so enthusiastic about slinging as Mersa. If we lived in a different timeline I think he would be a slinging samurai.  Wink

That being said yes, archers do that as well and with much, much more consistency than a slinger can. I feel sure Mersa would be the first to agree with that statement.

That being said I would not even attempt some of the shots he's actually been successful at. Spinning a bottle cap off a soda bottle with a sling is absolutely wild. I, on the other hand, drank a soda while watching his video. It was rough, but I lived through the experience and am no worse the wear for it.
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Re: Have we hit the wall?
Reply #14 - Dec 18th, 2024 at 8:31am
 
Thanks for the compliment dearest Morphalicious.
I think with slinging I still have impostor syndrome as my slinging is so irregular / erratic and I simply don't practice enough.

Mersa is a Slingurai now and in every timelime !

Timelines are sensible, timelimes go better with G&T.

Ok. So xmas viewing is ewe toob searching "archerycardtrickshots"

And Finally -

If you do not dilute your soda with 80 proof alcohol it is a proven fact that your brain, heart, lungs and thyroid will be the worse for
wear. Your liver will thank you, but thats for another day.

Pip pip.
😁👍
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My outlook on life is Aristotalean; on seeing an Acorn I see a potential oak tree rather than Plato's view that it is a failed copy.
BE SAFE,    BE SMILEY,   BE STRANGE
 
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