Slinging.org Forum - I present the nearly-knotless (NK)

erricrice

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I present the nearly-knotless (NK)
Aug 30^th, 2024 at 11:10pm

I recently acquired some dyneema (UHMWPE) and have been fiddling with it endlessly. It's great stuff! More expensive than paracord, but IMO far worth the increase in price for anyone looking to make single-strand(not braided) slings. Mainly for the reasons pointed out by others here over and over: it's lighter, more abrasion-resistant, and most importantly it is a hollow braid so it doesn't have a separate internal core the way paracord does. This means it is not prone to the semi-permanent twisting between the core and sheathing you get with single-strand paracord slings after a couple hundred or thousand throws.

This internal twisting has been an enless annoyance to me as I've continued to focus on accuracy and proper rifling spin in my throws to the point where I've purchased a classic balearic sling because I know it will have absolutely none of that problem. However, I started my slinging journey by designing a single-strand sling with a similarly single-stranded(ish) pouch, (seen here) so I think I've developed a soft spot for single strand slings and I'm determined to take them as far as they can go without any separate pouch materials whenever possible.

I spent a bunch of time learning about splicing dyneema(would highly recommend this youtube channel for anyone interested) and decided I wanted to try for a fully knotless design from a single length of dyneema. I feel the knotless design will reduce release interference as much as possible by keeping stiffness consistent throughout the sling and pouch(similar to the concepts AcroBallistics explains in his LP-4 design video).

After a bunch of fiddling, I found that I could get very close to knotless but not quite there(yet). There are still two constrictor knots for the crosslink on the pouch, and one nail knot(which is more like a whipping really, but technically still a knot) for the release cord tab(a poor-mans Acro release). All that in mind though, 6.1g is pretty good for a tennis ball sling if I say so myself!

A couple of things that I'm planning to continue to work on:

Yes, I know it's super messy. I redid the splices on every area at least 3 times while I was fiddling. I need to work on the production process and streamline things a bit.
I'll continue working to figure out how I could make this fully knotless. Sewing is an option, but not sure if I want to go that route yet. I'll give it some time and see what I come up with.
Specifically, I'm not super happy with the nail knot on the release tab, would definitely like to replace that.
Thicker dyneema for less torsion during windup.
Build guide coming once I get all the kinks worked out!

Aaaaaanyways, here it is!

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« Last Edit: Aug 31^st, 2024 at 10:27am by erricrice »

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Sarosh

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Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK)
Reply #1 - Aug 31^st, 2024 at 2:10am

this seems like Split Dyneema+ acro release but not stitched
https://youtu.be/9M2DGF2NUd4?si=BX2YW_bdU6rI8gxP

Later I used stitched splices on 2 of the 3 splices because it is as strong and takes less effort to make both sides of the pouch equal.
I'd recommend leather finger loop and widening at the point of the acro release for comfort.

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« Last Edit: Aug 31^st, 2024 at 4:32am by Sarosh »

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erricrice

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Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK)
Reply #2 - Aug 31^st, 2024 at 10:21am

Ha wow, how did I miss that?? I promise I wasn't just plagiarizing your design - I had no idea it was out there.

One major difference in design though - mine is a single full-size length of cord and the pouch is a small length(~30cm) spliced into the middle of that single length. Also the crosslink on the pouch allows it to be used for perfectly round ammo since I primarily throw tennis balls.

I didn't seem to have any trouble making the pouch cords equal in length, but good warning - I'll pay close attention to that as I make a cleaner one of these. The reference point I used was the first cross of the brummel-lock which essentially defines the inner point of pouch.

I like your idea of flattening the cord at the end! That certainly would help stabilize it and keep things aligned. My crosslink probably wouldn't work the same, but I'm sure I could figure something out(or maybe it wouldn't much matter if that section is round-ish).

And I forgot, I should have given credit where credit is due! My nail-knot tab was a poor-mans Acro release. But I do think I'll end up just sewing it.

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Sarosh Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Posts: 1178	Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK) Reply #3 - Aug 31^st, 2024 at 11:27am Thanks for the credit! I think Mersa was the one who made a dyneema split pouch first, it was thicker and tapered. I think you will like a 4-5mm one for general purposes like tennis ball and stone target slinging and a thinner one like these above for speed or distance
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erricrice

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Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK)
Reply #4 - Aug 31^st, 2024 at 7:10pm

Yes! I have some 4mm and 6mm dyneema coming that I'm going to try out next, I expect that'll have much better torsion resistance for more control(although this 2mm stuff seems to be plenty stable after a couple hundred throws).

I did have one question for you regarding the Acro release - do you typically grip mostly the cord and the tab just acts as a stopper, or are you also gripping the tab itself?

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erricrice

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Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK)
Reply #5 - Sep 1^st, 2024 at 12:33am

Alright I built another today, much cleaner than the last one. So here's the guide!
This will be much less comprehensive than my last one since it's pretty much just a matter of learning the brummel-locked splice which is much better covered by video than photos. Both in standard rope channels like this and as Acro pointed out, his own video with a very similar sling build here.

Starting with cuts. You'll want two lengths of cord. One that is the full unfolded length of the sling you want, plus 5cm on one end for the grip tab/knot and 15cm on the other for the finger loop and splice. The second length of cord is just for the pouch and will need to be the length of the pouch plus ~10cm on each side for splicing. As with my other guide, you'll want 70% of the ammo circumference for the pouch length: ~15cm for tennis balls and ~9.5cm for golf balls. Plus the 10cm on each side for splicing, so 35cm for a tennis ball.
- As a note, this guide is for this is for 2mm dyneema, you may need more splicing length for thicker dyneema. The recommendation for a secure(rock climbing secure) splice is 50x the diameter of the cord. However, since this is far from a life-saving critical application as well as the fact that we are using a brummel lock that could probably hold all of the slinging force on its own without the splice, this full length really isn't necessary. Acro used 25x diameter for his splices and that sling held up just fine.
In case this is your first time using dyneema: don't singe your ends like you would with paracord or other synthetic cord. I can say from experience that this makes splicing infinitely more difficult due to the blob being a thicker diameter to pull through the center of the other cord. Not to mention you'll have to taper it after pulling through anyway.
- A note on that point: I actually find it easier to splice if you taper before you pull the cord through for the splice. It bunches up less and is easier to pull through.
Mark your centers on both pieces. Note here, you can offset your center on the longer piece if you want to waste less material since your finger loop end will be longer than your retention cord end.
Mark ends of your pouch on both (half your pouch length: 7.5cm on each side in this case).
Your first hole through the braid goes into long cord. I don't have proper splicing tools(a splicing fid would be the correct tool here), so I used an awl to separate the braids, but a mechanical pencil or even a pen tip would work fairly well.
- All your holes should go just outside your pouch marks so your marks are just inside the pouch to keep your pouch the exact length you measured out.
Fish the short cord through the hole to your pouch mark, then make another hole, but this one in the short cord just outside your mark and fish the long cord through that hole. This is your brummel lock.
Then thread the short cord inside long cord, and pull through with wire(or a splicing needle if you have one). Any semi rigid gardening or craft wire will work. Taper if you didn't already, then milk the outer braid back down over the inner cord, hiding it forever.
Repeat all these steps for other side of the pouch, making very sure of three things that can make the sling nearly useless:
- The two pouch cords are the same length. If they are not, your release will be thrown one direction or another.
- The two pouch cords do not have twists in them when doing your second splice, again this will throw your release.
- The two brummel locks are perfectly parallel to each other. If they are not both on the same plane(both the same up/down or left/right depending on orientation), this will put a twist in the pouch which again with throw your release.
You're done with the pouch! It should look something like this.
Now onto the finger loop. Mark the spots where the cord comes together for whatever size loop you want.
- Then it's the same procedure as with the pouch splices. Keep in mind that for the second hole this time, you will actually be passing the entire sling through the hole. So make sure you do the finger loop before your release tab/knot. I find this method much easier than the double-loop untwist method that is typically recommended and Acro used in his build here.
- Make sure your brummel lock this time is exactly 90 degress to your other splices so the pouch will align properly when the loop is on your finger, otherwise your release will be thrown.
Roll it flat for better grip alignment! Be sure there aren't any twists are you roll or you will make those twists semi-permanent and difficult to remove. A regular baking rolling pin worked great here. You can see the dramatic difference before and after rolling.
You can also roll the finger loop flat for a wider/softer loop and greater overall comfort. I used the handle of the rolling pin inserted into the loop to roll the finger loop flat.
Install your crosslink after rolling everything flat. The constrictor knots seem to work just as well if not better on the flat cord than on the round cord. See my other guide on exactly how to do that, but again you'll want to keep it to 15% of the circumference of your ammo. ~3cm for a tennis ball. The only knots in the build! As soon as I find a way to splice perpendicular threads they'll be gone too
In the end, I decided on an Acro release and sewed this leather tab on. I'm not good at sewing, so not many tips here. Just poke a hole in the center of the leather with an awl or small hole punch(don't try to push a needle through without a guide hole unless you have experience sewing leather and have the right tools). Then thread the needle down and around a bunch and occasionally pass the needle crosswise under the thread to help lock it in place. You'll want at least three sew points for security and stability. This will double as a way to keep the dyneema from unraveling, so you can just leave it loose for a cracker, or install your own extra cracker if you have another preferred material.

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erricrice Junior Member Online Posts: 64 Clearwater, FL	Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK) Reply #6 - Sep 1^st, 2024 at 12:35am And finally, the finished product! (although this was before I put in the real Acro release)
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Sarosh

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Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK)
Reply #7 - Sep 1^st, 2024 at 2:40am

Nice guide!

erricrice wrote on Aug 31^st, 2024 at 7:10pm:

I did have one question for you regarding the Acro release - do you typically grip mostly the cord and the tab just acts as a stopper, or are you also gripping the tab itself?

Grip and slide your fingers on the cord until the thumb stops on the leather flap. I don't touch the backside(dark brown in your photos) of the leather with the thumb.

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ScantPalaver Junior Member Offline Have fun! Posts: 86 Olympia Gender:	Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK) Reply #8 - Sep 1^st, 2024 at 4:06am Would adding this count as a knot? (If it can be adapted) https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1615005901/17#17 Another member uses a button for a release tab. https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1719494893/7#7
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Mersa Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Druid Posts: 2612 Australia Gender:	Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK) Reply #9 - Sep 1^st, 2024 at 5:03am I like it .
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erricrice

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Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK)
Reply #10 - Sep 1^st, 2024 at 3:22pm

Sarosh wrote on Sep 1^st, 2024 at 2:40am:

Nice guide!

erricrice wrote Yesterday at 7:10pm:
I did have one question for you regarding the Acro release - do you typically grip mostly the cord and the tab just acts as a stopper, or are you also gripping the tab itself?

Grip and slide your fingers on the cord until the thumb stops on the leather flap. I don't touch the backside(dark brown in your photos) of the leather with the thumb.

Thanks! I figured that was the main way to use it, but just wanted to check. It's much stronger as a stopper like that, especially when the projectiles are heavier instead of light tennis balls.

ScantPalaver wrote on Sep 1^st, 2024 at 4:06am:

Would adding this count as a knot? (If it can be adapted)
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1615005901/17#17

Another member uses a button for a release tab.
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1719494893/7#7

Ooo yeah, good tip! I had seen that button release before and considered that as well, but I'm liking the Acro release so far. We'll see how it goes!

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IronGoober

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Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK)
Reply #11 - Sep 1^st, 2024 at 8:06pm

Note on the button release, that nice netted sling from Rhonan was actually sent to me (It is one of my favorites now). I tried it for a while with the plastic button, and it worked fine for a while. But eventually I threw some really heavy stones and the button snapped. I have since gone with a metal button and no issues. Haven't gotten whipped or hurt or anything and it has held up nicely. I did have to roughen the surface with sandpaper for a better grip though, as it was plated and very smooth.

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John R.

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erricrice Junior Member Online Posts: 64 Clearwater, FL	Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK) Reply #12 - Sep 1^st, 2024 at 8:52pm Oh good to know! I'm almost exclusively tennis balls at the moment(not enough room for anything deadly), but it makes sense that heavier stuff might snap a plastic button that really isn't meant to have that kind of force on it.
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erricrice

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Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK)
Reply #13 - Sep 6^th, 2024 at 2:19pm

The 4mm dyneema arrived today! Sling build works just as well as with 2mm. Based on this weight increase, I would guess somewhere around 35-40g for the 6mm dyneema that is still on the slow boat to my house.

The only reason I'm interested in the thicker dyneema at all was for decreased effects of torsion. However, given how little trouble(read: none) I've had with twisting/release alignment on the 2mm sling after nearly a thousand throws, this may be a non-issue and the thicker stuff may just be a fun experiment that is too heavy for my preferences.

Regardless, once the 6mm gets here I'll do a comprehensive torsion test with all the different materials I've accumulated so far. Keep an eye out!

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Re: I present the nearly-knotless (NK)
Reply #14 - Sep 9^th, 2024 at 1:50am

Oh, this method of threading the cord through the braid itself to avoid knots reminded me of the slings from PAN
https://panslings.com/collections/frontpage

But what's even more surprising is that it looks like there's a real progenitor of them here on the forum (the post is from 2012) with the same solution of a leather finger loop and a "knot" for release.
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1346419810/14#14

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