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Gotta Wonder Where This Ends (Read 2664 times)
Curious Aardvark
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #30 - Feb 16th, 2022 at 12:04pm
 
I'm surprised a faction inside russia doesn;t take him out. He's really not good for the country.
Or the world in general.

The difference is that hitler had the backing of the german populace. Putin no longer has the backing of the average russian.

The ones who still think stalin was a good egg, are probably on putins side.
But the vast majority - nope.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #31 - Feb 17th, 2022 at 10:40am
 
I've mentioned before that Putin is entirely understandable, just cast as an 18th century european politician.

I think many got used to the idea that "we're all on the same side, give a little to get a little" and any nation that is self-interested (which used to be the norm) gets ire. The problem is the Europeans torched that ideal of "hey we'll all get along" with their fiasco of diplomatic relations with Turkey. Russia doesn't buy for one sec that Europe will give them a fair shake this time, so why shouldn't they play power politics? Why shouldn't they play hardball?

It's that subtle shift in the baseline game, are we cooperating or competing? If you're playing nicely and another player is use gamebreaking strategies, that feels like betrayal. But which is the game? I tend to hold that looking at it cooperatively is the exception and the normative way is competitive. Looked at that way, Putin isn't bad for Russia, just everyone Russia is playing against.
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AncientCraftwork
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #32 - Feb 18th, 2022 at 12:36pm
 
If you want the Russian perspective; the West is arming the illegitimate - CIA / Mossad funded† - post 2014 government of Ukraine, who wants to invade Donbas and Crimea. That is why Russia is placing troops at the border, to show they are ready to defend these regions in case Kiev decides to go ahead with attacking the seceded regions. (Who seceded because they didn't want to have anything to do with the post 2014 CIA//mossad government of Ukraine )
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Hirtius
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #33 - Feb 18th, 2022 at 6:47pm
 
I wonder if Russians actually believe it or not.

Gotta love how Mossad is in on it. No conspiracy is complete without Jews.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #34 - Feb 18th, 2022 at 7:26pm
 
the inclusion of the papacy in conspiracies is the amusing one to me.

In their defense though, the idea that the entirety of the world's intelligence agencies just watched with detached disinterest during governmental upheaval in Ukraine stretches credulity.
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Hirtius
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #35 - Feb 18th, 2022 at 7:42pm
 
They arenít watching with disinterest, theyíre sounding the alarm every time Russia does something. But any active involvement conspiracy *really* doesnít make sense in the current political attitudes. The US, and probably the rest of NATO, has a bit of an isolationist attitude. Weirdly enough, thatís the one thing popular among Americans across the political spectrum.

Iíll be honest, I wish there was a CIA conspiracy. At least someone would be doing something. Right now itís just intelligence, told to a Ukraine that is halfway in denial for some reason. My personal guess is that if the Russians invade, which at the moment is thought to be imminent, I donít think the Ukrainians will put up a great resistance. If youíre still in denial when an invasion that could be within days, it probably wonít go well.
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #36 - Feb 19th, 2022 at 10:08am
 
I dont know about mossad but its really not difficult to believe the US government would lie to get us or others into a war. Seeing as they have done it before.  Roll Eyes
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Hirtius
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #37 - Feb 19th, 2022 at 12:31pm
 
Thatís fair, except the aggressor in this case is Russia. I donít think they need help from the CIA to start a war, theyíve also done it. This isnít even the first time with Ukraine.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #38 - Feb 19th, 2022 at 5:10pm
 
The question isn't alphabet soup agencies acting now, when we're beating the drums of war in the west, but when Ukraine changed gov before. And western media was far less interested then. The various agencies, I imagine, were far from disinterested observers.

To be clear: I'm not taking Russia's side or endorsing them. But if you don't acknowledge the nuggets of truth in the propaganda, you're susceptible to it.
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #39 - Feb 19th, 2022 at 5:56pm
 
Iíve never heard anything regarding foreign intelligences acting during the Euromaiden protests and overthrow. At least as far as Iím aware, that the people popularly rose up to oust an unpopular president who would position Ukraine as more dependent on Russia. I feel like some vague western conspiracy is an excuse to force Ukrainians back into the Russian sphere of influence. I donít even see any evidence for the grain of truth you are talking about, and the true intentions of Russia seem to be very blatant.

Edit: I originally had said the president was questionably elected, but it turns out his election was seen as fair. Such allegations were from an earlier election. That makes the overthrow a bit more complicated. However, as of now Iím not finding anything suggesting that the US provided anything more than some intelligence support. Meanwhile, I think the Russians provided a bunch of material support to the president and then to the rebels.
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #40 - Feb 19th, 2022 at 6:15pm
 
Certainly I agree that Russian intentions are blatant. They want to expand Russian power and further Russian interests. In this case, Ukraine gets to pay the price. Because none of our countries are willing to pay the price.

I am not expert by any means, and I haven't studied it deeply, but this I am sure of: It was messy. And it would be no surprise to find out that more than one agency was putting a thumb on the scales. Eastern and Western both.
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #41 - Feb 19th, 2022 at 6:31pm
 
Thereís a difference between a light thumbprint and pushing down heavily on the scales, which Russia was doing. They then attempted to knock over the scales and is now going at it with a hammer. Ok, maybe a bit of a stupid analogy, but the point is that the two arenít the same.

But letís just say that the conspiracy is true and the Americans pulled a lot more strings than anyone ever imagined. Is Russia in the right? Absolutely not. Euromaiden had broad popular support. Getting invadedÖ doesnít.

The what about-isms donít even make sense, but even if they did Russia wouldnít be justified at all.


I guess I have a basic question. If Russia isnít planning bad stuff, why are they so afraid of more countries joining NATO?
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #42 - Feb 19th, 2022 at 8:12pm
 
There's a bleak view of the world that says "the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must". Ukraine was weak because of government was in flux, Russia took Crimea (again). We in the west got on our high horses and screeched about how terrible it was for a couple of years. Didn't matter. Now we admit that Crimea has been "annexed". We still say the election they held wasn't legitimate, but it doesn't matter. Russia wasn't Right/Just to take it but no one was willing to pay the price to stop it.

I try to be detached and that means I tend not to get het up about who is "in the right". I just try to predict how the game will unfold. It wasn't just when the world carved up Poland but it didn't matter. It was done. The Ukranians are very similar position right now. And it being Eastern Europe the ethnicities and distrust and corruption make it more muddled which makes it easy for powers to not do anything. Biden does not have the confidence of the US and as a whole we're very war weary. Germany (if you watch the words) won't even swear off Russian energy even if Russia acts.  Ultimately, I don't see any players willing to pay. And even if they were, none of us look lightly at the prospect of trying dig out entrenched Russians.

What has frustrated me is that anyone should have been able to predict all that. And if that's the case, you don't  advertise your weakness. All of this hooplah around it that won't change the outcome just says how weak you are.

So I feel for the Ukranians, I do. It's just that feelings don't matter.
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #43 - Feb 19th, 2022 at 9:40pm
 
And itís a shame no one has done anything. The west is weak. Iím harsh on Biden as well as he pretty much gave a green light, but across the board Americans of all political beliefs are now weak to any kinds of foreign action. Itís pathetic.
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Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Reply #44 - Feb 22nd, 2022 at 7:40am
 
exactly what do you think anyone could do ?

The only countries with standing armies big enough to bother russia are: china, usa and north korea

None of them are either bothered or in a position to do anything about it.

At the end of the day there is very little to stop putin 'annexing' the rest of europe.

There's an old 2000ad comic strip: invasion
All about the 'volgan' (read: sovier union) invasion of europe and the uk.

It's looking more and more like reality every day.

It took america 2 years to decide to enter the second world war.

It'd take a whole helluva lot longer for ANY modern american administration to send troops to europe again.

Our civilisation has been on the downswing for a long time.
Honestly, who knows where this could lead.

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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One †- works for me Smiley
 
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