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Slinging with a shield (Read 2898 times)
joe_meadmaker
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #15 - Nov 14th, 2021 at 12:56pm
 
A buckler would have been more specific to one on one combat.  Its main purpose is to parry and deflect close quarter weapons.  Definitely not something that would have been carried into battle against ranged weapons.
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Kick
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #16 - Nov 14th, 2021 at 1:53pm
 
Better than no shield though Cheesy I think most slingers would have had pretty small light weight shields if they did have a shield. I would love to make a wicker shield with a leather cover some time.
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"Nothing matters, but it’s perhaps more comfortable to keep calm and not interfere with other people." - H.P. Lovecraft, in a letter to Frank Belknap Long, 7 October, 1923
 
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Jaegoor
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #17 - Nov 14th, 2021 at 4:41pm
 
Aja. Warum gibt es dann zahlreiche Bilder mit buckler und kleinem Schild?
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joe_meadmaker
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #18 - Nov 14th, 2021 at 6:04pm
 
I'm certainly no expert, so I can only speak on what I've read, and what otherwise makes sense to me.  I'm happy to hear new information.

I haven't seen anything on slingers specifically, but I've read discussion on archers carrying bucklers or small shields.  But these shields didn't seem to be intended as a defense against missile fire from the opposing side, but rather for defensive use if/when a battle turned into a melee fight.  It would make sense because a smaller shield isn't much extra weight to carry, but it's very helpful in close combat.

It also doesn't make much sense to me that an army of slingers, archers, or whatever would be positioned within range of the opposing force's long range attack.  And even if they did, a buckler still wouldn't be good at defending against incoming projectiles unless they were visible and moving slow enough for a person to react to them.  As Kick said, "better than no shield".  Which I agree with.  I still wouldn't call it good.

But on what you said about pictures Jaegoor, I have seen pictures of slingers holding shields that appear to be fairly small in size.  I haven't seen pictures of an army using them against incoming missile fire.  If you have an image of that, I would very much like to see it.
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Jaegoor
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #19 - Nov 15th, 2021 at 2:29am
 
Wink
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Morphy
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #20 - Nov 15th, 2021 at 4:57am
 
I can't imagine the emphasis for bucklers had much to do with defense against projectiles. The greater defense you add on a slinger either through actively trying to block with a shield or giving them a larger shield the more you take away from offense which is their primary purpose. Ultimately you end up with a poor ranged unit with better defense which accomplishes nothing.

Assuming the armies arent complete morons and are doing staggered volleys Im also not quite sure when exactly you are meant to sling in between all the blocking? If done correctly there shouldnt be a lot of time in between volleys and if your tactic is to sling only when its relatively safe youve pretty much doomed your infantry since the opposing side will be putting out so much more firepower than you. But thank goodness you will be safe...until your front line is overwhelmed and you die anyways.

If defense vs projectiles was a main concern just give them bigger shields and take the hit on offense.

I would bet money that when the decision to give them bucklers was first made they said word for word what Kick did: "Its better than nothing".

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joe_meadmaker
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #21 - Nov 15th, 2021 at 10:07am
 
Thanks for the picture Jaegoor.  Although if we're talking about the slinger that's standing in front of the dead guy, I would argue that's not a buckler he's holding.  The top of the shield is partially covering his face, and the bottom is below his waist.  That's way too big for a buckler.

It also looks like it's being held by the forearm (can't be positive though).  But this also would disqualify it as a buckler in my opinion.
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MikeG
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #22 - Nov 15th, 2021 at 10:34am
 
joe_meadmaker wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 10:07am:
Thanks for the picture Jaegoor.  Although if we're talking about the slinger that's standing in front of the dead guy, I would argue that's not a buckler he's holding.  The top of the shield is partially covering his face, and the bottom is below his waist.  That's way too big for a buckler.

It also looks like it's being held by the forearm (can't be positive though).  But this also would disqualify it as a buckler in my opinion.


well, he said buckler and small shield.
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joe_meadmaker
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #23 - Nov 15th, 2021 at 2:02pm
 
MikeG wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 10:34am:
well, he said buckler and small shield.

He did.  But if he was initially responding to my comment at the top of this page, I didn't.  While a buckler is a small shield, not all small shields are bucklers.  I would not have made the same statement about small shields as whole.  That's too broad of a category.
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Jaegoor
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #24 - Nov 15th, 2021 at 3:16pm
 
Korinthenkackerei.  Wink Eigentlich ist ein buckler ein Faustschild. Aber auch diese sieht man bei slinger.
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joe_meadmaker
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #25 - Nov 15th, 2021 at 3:54pm
 
Perhaps.  Cheesy

I think we're in complete agreement on what a buckler is.  My point was just that it won't be a great choice against long range weapons.  The surface area is too small.

Another thing that comes to mind about any center grip shield is the reloading of a sling.  With a shield that is strapped to the arm, the shield hand is pretty free to take care of reloading.  But when the shield hand is the only thing holding it up, that could be more difficult.  I actually don't have a center grip shield.  All of mine have a strap for the forearm.  I might have to build one.

That's a great picture.  It does make me wonder.
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Jaegoor
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #26 - Nov 15th, 2021 at 4:02pm
 
Ein am Unterarm befestigter Schild in nicht klug. Er ist wenig flexibel. ein Schild wird nicht nur als Schutz geführt. Er ist auch eine Waffe. Für einen Slinger auch eine Zielhilfe
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joe_meadmaker
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #27 - Nov 15th, 2021 at 7:10pm
 
I disagree.  If the shield is attached to the arm in a way that it can't be removed quickly and easily, I don't like that.  But on my own shields I attach a fixed leather strap that I just slide my arm through.  This doesn't prevent the shield from being held down at the side.  It also doesn't prevent it from being used offensively.  You can still push forward with it, or "punch" with the edge.

One of the main benefits of a forearm strap is that most of the shield weight is supported on the arm near the elbow rather than by the hand.  This provides better leverage and makes it much easier to hold shields that are large or heavy.

And a shield held in front of you will be a target aid for slingers whether it's held by the hand or by the forearm.
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #28 - Nov 16th, 2021 at 4:31am
 
My video on slinging with a shield is almost ready. I've had some problems with exporting but it will be out soon. I will say, reloading takes getting used to, but is easier than expected with a centre-grip. I think even a small buckler would be of some use to a slinger, obviously in hand-to-hand but also from missles if they did get caught in a bad spot. Having even a small shield out protects the upper body, the heart and lungs most importantly, and, because of this, does add some confidence. If nothing else, it helps feel more protected even if it isn't 100% effective. If I was a slinger on a battlefield, I would take a shield.
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You are a great guy Kick but also slightly scary at times. - Morphy
"Nothing matters, but it’s perhaps more comfortable to keep calm and not interfere with other people." - H.P. Lovecraft, in a letter to Frank Belknap Long, 7 October, 1923
 
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Re: Slinging with a shield
Reply #29 - Nov 16th, 2021 at 4:49am
 
Video finally up: https://youtu.be/QFS2kaoZcDE
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You are a great guy Kick but also slightly scary at times. - Morphy
"Nothing matters, but it’s perhaps more comfortable to keep calm and not interfere with other people." - H.P. Lovecraft, in a letter to Frank Belknap Long, 7 October, 1923
 
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