Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Poll Poll
Question: Target Size

Standard Balearic 'Diana' (50cm)    
  5 (71.4%)
Target (30cm)    
  1 (14.3%)
Other    
  1 (14.3%)




Total votes: 7
« Created by: Archaic Arms on: Nov 14th, 2021 at 6:28am »

Pages: 1 2 3 ... 5
Send Topic Print
New Ranking System (Read 953 times)
Archaic Arms
Funditor
****
Offline


Testing and inventing
"Archaic" weapons.

Posts: 547
New Ranking System
Nov 9th, 2021 at 9:03am
 
So this bubbled up as a result of this thread: https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1636237960

The idea is that a simple ranking system could be established by having a sub 1" coin (say US quarter or UK 10p coins for example) and having it set up at an interval of 10yds. Video proof of hitting the coin at the given interval earns you that rank.
I'm currently thinking something akin to a star system would be best, with 10yds being 1 star, 20yds 2 stars, 30yds 3 stars, and so on.
50 or so yards seems to be the point where the coin starts to become difficult to see, so it naturally acts as a range-cap. With the target being a coin, the setup should also be very compact and cost effective, in contrast to Balearic targets that are heavy, awkward, and potentially expensive.

The rules are that the projectiles cannot be larger than a certain size, and some proof of the distance is required. (we can discuss what these should be)

Filming of the hit can be achieved by videoing through a monocular (or better, a range-finder), and because these are not extended ranges, even cheap equipment should suffice.

Please express your ideas and opinions so that we can come up with something that's simple and works.

Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2021 at 3:54pm by Archaic Arms »  

Regards,
Lewis.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Morphy
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


Checkmate

Posts: 7645
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #1 - Nov 9th, 2021 at 10:41am
 
Ive been wanting to introduce a ranking system for some time. This is one of the major reasons behind my max accuracy threads in the past so im totally with you on that.

Im of the opinion that for a ranking to mean something it has to be based on multiple hits in a row at least 2 times in a session with it happening 3 sessions in a row. Also the amount of shots you are allowed in each session and of course distance and ammo size are all part of it.

The reason behind this is to try and squash the ability to simply sling thousands of shots until you get a hit. Or perhaps sling just a normal amount of shots and get a *really* lucky streak that places you on a level you arent good enough to be at.

By using the above method we would reduce the incident of luck to almost nil. This would make each rank a very solid and consistent view of how good someone is on that rank.

Im not saying it would have to be exactly as the above but something that gets rid of luck and focuses on consistency imo would be ideal.
Back to top
 

"I think this guy is the king of trolls of the forum, he waited 16 years just to say this. please pay your respects in an orderly fashion."-Sarosh
 
IP Logged
 
Archaic Arms
Funditor
****
Offline


Testing and inventing
"Archaic" weapons.

Posts: 547
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #2 - Nov 9th, 2021 at 11:24am
 
Morphy wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 10:41am:
Ive been wanting to introduce a ranking system for some time. This is one of the major reasons behind my max accuracy threads in the past so im totally with you on that.

Im of the opinion that for a ranking to mean something it has to be based on multiple hits in a row at least 2 times in a session with it happening 3 sessions in a row. Also the amount of shots you are allowed in each session and of course distance and ammo size are all part of it.

The reason behind this is to try and squash the ability to simply sling thousands of shots until you get a hit. Or perhaps sling just a normal amount of shots and get a *really* lucky streak that places you on a level you arent good enough to be at.

By using the above method we would reduce the incident of luck to almost nil. This would make each rank a very solid and consistent view of how good someone is on that rank.

Im not saying it would have to be exactly as the above but something that gets rid of luck and focuses on consistency imo would be ideal.


You are right in that what you propose would be more comprehensive and in-depth.
The way I see it however, is that the element of luck is not an issue, and the simplicity of the system and procedure is key. The idea with the coins is that because it is such a small target, you cannot rely on pure luck in order to get the hit on video. Your only real chance of getting the rank is by being consistent enough at the given range, to give you enough confidence that you can capture it on camera.

Another thing that I forgot to mention, is that one should have to have to get the previous rank first before you proceed to a further interval. I.e you can't be a 5 star slinger without doing the 1-4 star distances beforehand. (an idea Irongoober put forward)
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2021 at 5:05pm by Archaic Arms »  

Regards,
Lewis.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
IronGoober
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


...and now, No. 1, the
larch...

Posts: 1053
California
Gender: male
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #3 - Nov 9th, 2021 at 3:08pm
 
Archaic Arms wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 11:24am:
The reason behind this is to try and squash the ability to simply sling thousands of shots until you get a hit.


Archaic Arms wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 11:24am:
you can't be a 5 star slinger without doing the 1-4 star distances beforehand.


Morphy, I thought that if one is forced to do the distances in succession, the element of luck diminishes rapidly. Because if it was just luck (random chance) that allowed you to hit a target, the probability of you getting the second is even more remote because the distance has increased.

I kind of like the idea of just needing doing it once, because as I learned from my trickshots, you can get really really close many times and still not achieve the goal. You can be so, SO consistent and dialed in and still miss. Needing to do it twice in a row may just be adding in another factor of luck rather than reducing it.  You could add in a certain number of tries, etc., but then it makes keeping everyone honest more difficult. It would be easier to do in person, but on this virtual platform, I think a single verified hit should be sufficient, as long as it is in succession.

Feel free to disagree.
Back to top
 

John R.
 
IP Logged
 
Sarosh
Funditor
****
Offline



Posts: 986
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #4 - Nov 9th, 2021 at 3:28pm
 
even if it's by chance or even if they skip close distances and go straight to 50m I'd like to see people do it.
filming it is already difficult
it can be both a challenge and a ranking system
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Jaegoor
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Online


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 2496
Gender: male
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #5 - Nov 9th, 2021 at 4:50pm
 
Versuchen sie ein farbiges T-Shirt zu schießen.
Back to top
 

Bono Mellius
 
IP Logged
 
Morphy
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


Checkmate

Posts: 7645
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #6 - Nov 9th, 2021 at 5:05pm
 
IronGoober wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 3:08pm:
Archaic Arms wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 11:24am:
The reason behind this is to try and squash the ability to simply sling thousands of shots until you get a hit.


Archaic Arms wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 11:24am:
you can't be a 5 star slinger without doing the 1-4 star distances beforehand.


Morphy, I thought that if one is forced to do the distances in succession, the element of luck diminishes rapidly. Because if it was just luck (random chance) that allowed you to hit a target, the probability of you getting the second is even more remote because the distance has increased.

I kind of like the idea of just needing doing it once, because as I learned from my trickshots, you can get really really close many times and still not achieve the goal. You can be so, SO consistent and dialed in and still miss. Needing to do it twice in a row may just be adding in another factor of luck rather than reducing it.  You could add in a certain number of tries, etc., but then it makes keeping everyone honest more difficult. It would be easier to do in person, but on this virtual platform, I think a single verified hit should be sufficient, as long as it is in succession.

Feel free to disagree.


I do like AAs idea. I want it to be clear im not doggin on him or the idea in general. My only concern is that you can have two guys of wildly different skill levels able to be at the same star because one had a really good, lucky shot (perhaps after 1000 tries) and the other had a shot based more on skill after say 50 tries.

The more shots in a row the more the law of averages comes into play. So while you might have a really lucky day the likelihood of hitting a shot 3 times in a row and even perhaps multiple times in one session would really go a long ways to assure its not mostly luck.

With a one shot and youre done system almost anyone with enough determination and enough shots is going to end up at a high star ranking.

Its really like any olympic shooting sport the more hits needed in a set number of tries means a higher skill level is needed to accomplish it.

Again just my 2 cents. Everyone can follow their own view on this one of course.
Back to top
 

"I think this guy is the king of trolls of the forum, he waited 16 years just to say this. please pay your respects in an orderly fashion."-Sarosh
 
IP Logged
 
Archaic Arms
Funditor
****
Offline


Testing and inventing
"Archaic" weapons.

Posts: 547
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #7 - Nov 10th, 2021 at 10:10am
 
Morphy wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 5:05pm:
I do like AAs idea. I want it to be clear im not doggin on him or the idea in general. My only concern is that you can have two guys of wildly different skill levels able to be at the same star because one had a really good, lucky shot (perhaps after 1000 tries) and the other had a shot based more on skill after say 50 tries.

The more shots in a row the more the law of averages comes into play. So while you might have a really lucky day the likelihood of hitting a shot 3 times in a row and even perhaps multiple times in one session would really go a long ways to assure its not mostly luck.

With a one shot and youre done system almost anyone with enough determination and enough shots is going to end up at a high star ranking.

Its really like any olympic shooting sport the more hits needed in a set number of tries means a higher skill level is needed to accomplish it.

Again just my 2 cents. Everyone can follow their own view on this one of course.


I don't think that would be an issue, as there is nothing stopping the better slinger from going for a higher rank. (after all, there is no cap to how many stars you can have)
Determination will certainly aid you, but that also goes for any other video-based ranking system.

One more thing - The higher the rank, the less luck.
A beginner may by pure chance get the 10y hit, but there is no chance they could climb the ranks and stand amongst experts with 6 or so stars, without becoming an expert themselves. At those distances, so many other factors come into play; factors that only experience would allow you to overcome. I actually see it being representative of skill level (especially the higher ranks) if people took it on.
Back to top
 

Regards,
Lewis.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Morphy
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


Checkmate

Posts: 7645
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #8 - Nov 10th, 2021 at 1:52pm
 
AA, I gotcha man. In this case we may disagree but im also looking forward to being wrong because its a very straightforward system and Ive felt like we need a ranking system for years now. Whatever is decided, if anything is decided, I will gladly take part in it.  Smiley
Back to top
 

"I think this guy is the king of trolls of the forum, he waited 16 years just to say this. please pay your respects in an orderly fashion."-Sarosh
 
IP Logged
 
joe_meadmaker
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Slinging Ice is Cool!

Posts: 1767
PA, USA
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #9 - Nov 10th, 2021 at 4:58pm
 
I think both ideas are valid.  One is about being able to accomplish a task.  The other is about being able to repeat the accomplishment.  Either works fine, it's just dependent on what we're after.

There will be much more opportunity for people to rise in the ranks if it's just a single hit.  I completely agree that one hit doesn't represent a slingers skill anywhere near as much as repeating a hit.  But I do know that I'm never getting 2 hits in a row on a coin at 20 m (or yards, whatever is decided on).  I might be able to pull off a double at 10.  But at 20, that ain't happening.  Grin
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
IronGoober
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


...and now, No. 1, the
larch...

Posts: 1053
California
Gender: male
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #10 - Nov 10th, 2021 at 5:48pm
 
Ijoe_meadmaker wrote on Nov 10th, 2021 at 4:58pm:
might be able to pull off a double at 10.  But at 20, that ain't happening. 

I'm with you Joe, which is why my vote is the way it is. 

Morphy, how about this? If you can complete it up to 50 yards/m (whichever is decided), you're a 5 star, then if you want to get to 6, you have to get 2 shots in a row at 10m, for 7, 2 shots in a row at 20m, etc...   

I actually kind of like the idea. There is no end to the ranking that you could achieve.


Back to top
 

John R.
 
IP Logged
 
Morphy
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


Checkmate

Posts: 7645
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #11 - Nov 10th, 2021 at 6:26pm
 
IronGoober wrote on Nov 10th, 2021 at 5:48pm:
Ijoe_meadmaker wrote on Nov 10th, 2021 at 4:58pm:
might be able to pull off a double at 10.  But at 20, that ain't happening. 

I'm with you Joe, which is why my vote is the way it is. 

Morphy, how about this? If you can complete it up to 50 yards/m (whichever is decided), you're a 5 star, then if you want to get to 6, you have to get 2 shots in a row at 10m, for 7, 2 shots in a row at 20m, etc...   

I actually kind of like the idea. There is no end to the ranking that you could achieve.




That is a fantastic and simple solution. I love it!!

Also just to clear something up I wasnt thinking multiple hits on a coin.. I was thinking more of a system of distances and targets that are reflective of the skill level one desired. The first level could be multiple shots on maybe a balearic target at 10 meters. All the way up to something like a soda can at 50.

But yeah thats neither here nor there, I love the idea IG. Im totally in.
Back to top
 

"I think this guy is the king of trolls of the forum, he waited 16 years just to say this. please pay your respects in an orderly fashion."-Sarosh
 
IP Logged
 
joe_meadmaker
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Slinging Ice is Cool!

Posts: 1767
PA, USA
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #12 - Nov 10th, 2021 at 10:06pm
 
Morphy wrote on Nov 10th, 2021 at 6:26pm:
That is a fantastic and simple solution. I love it!!

+1
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Archaic Arms
Funditor
****
Offline


Testing and inventing
"Archaic" weapons.

Posts: 547
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #13 - Nov 11th, 2021 at 7:10am
 
I'm liking where this is going IG.
In retrospect, I think before we establish anything we should try and make everything as practical, compact, and simple as possible. There are some legitimate downsides of using a coin as a target. (filming complications have been pointed out, repeated hits extremely difficult, and they are easy to lose once hit)
So I've done some thinking and I recon a target that's 1ft round would be a good balance of both worlds. It's small enough to fit into a backpack, and should be big enough to video up to 50yd/m, especially if painted a contrasting colour.
I'm wondering whether a target this size, combined with a 'streak' based system would work well for our mostly online community.

Here's the notion:
In order to get 1 star, you have to hit the target at 10yd/m twice, with the two shots no more than 10 shots apart.

In order to get 5 stars, you have to hit the target at 50yd/m twice, with the two shots no more than 10 shots apart.

And so on...
You get the idea hopefully.

The idea behind this is that you can just have the camera rolling the entire session, and then just edit it after to have a short, uncut slinging clip with the two hits (within 10 shots apart).
This combines some of the importance of repeatability that Morphy mentioned, with greater simplicity and ease of filming. It should also be easy enough to give most people a couple of stars, while being difficult enough to make a rank like 5 stars properly impressive.
We could play around with the numbers a bit, say instead of two hits within 10 shots apart, have 3 hits within 15 shots. Or something like that. It should be difficult enough to keep the ranges relatively low.

I now see the sub 1" coin at 50yd being a terrific online challenge, and that's probably were it should stay. Get the it and you join the Crack-Shot Club...

Any thoughts?
Back to top
 

Regards,
Lewis.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Morphy
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


Checkmate

Posts: 7645
Re: New Ranking System
Reply #14 - Nov 11th, 2021 at 8:38am
 
I like it AA.

The target size is actually an important point.  Even with soda cans good luck getting a target that size to show up on camera at 50ms..

I would also point out that the max accuracy thread weve been working on can give you a really good gauge of what level the difficulty could/should be for each level.

The formula we use has proven to be a very reliable indicator of difficulty regardless of target size and distance. All that matters is the ratio between the two. So perhaps we could decide first what signifies the different ranking levels (keeping in mind the upward drift of skill levels as years go by) and then make sure 
whatever target is used falls in line with the correct ratio.
Back to top
 

"I think this guy is the king of trolls of the forum, he waited 16 years just to say this. please pay your respects in an orderly fashion."-Sarosh
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 5
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Bill Skinner, Masiakasaurus, Curious Aardvark, Rat Man, Mauro Fiorentini, LightSlinger, Chris)