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Where would you go? (Read 505 times)
Morphy
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #15 - Nov 4th, 2021 at 7:41am
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Nov 3rd, 2021 at 4:34pm:
So you guys are okay without toilet paper, flush toilets, electricity, gas on tap, hot and cold running water - though to be fair the romans had those.
Modern medicine.

Primitive lives are just non-stop hard and dirty work.

What's wrong with a little luxury Smiley


Because modern society for all its luxuries has a high rate of stress and suicide whereas in modern hunter gatherer cultures suicide, depression and diseases like heart disease and others are almost unheard of.

We have long associated plenty and security with happiness but in terms of happiness and fulfillment we are, in general, missing something big imo..
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Caldou
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #16 - Nov 4th, 2021 at 7:52am
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Nov 3rd, 2021 at 4:34pm:
So you guys are okay without toilet paper, flush toilets, electricity, gas on tap, hot and cold running water - though to be fair the romans had those.
Modern medicine.

Primitive lives are just non-stop hard and dirty work.

What's wrong with a little luxury Smiley

Hunter gatherers spend way more time "working" than modern human though.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #17 - Nov 4th, 2021 at 9:44am
 
I am slowly reading through Seneca's letters. He has a wonderful letter ( 86 on Scipio's villa) where he bemoans the luxury of modern Romans and the ill effects of it. http://essays.quotidiana.org/seneca/scipios_villa/ I really enjoy it when Seneca bemoans the modern world. It makes me happy to see how humans are human across time and place.  I agree with Seneca though, too much luxury breeds weakness of body and character. You can find similar arguments the world round. The question then is where is "too much?"

It's also interesting that historians fight over how people lived. How hard was it? Nasty brutish and short? Less stress and work hours than now? I've seen PhDs argue both sides. Some of it is still the "noble savage" vs "progress of civilization"  worldviews if we're honest and the adherents make the facts fit their picture. 

Don't get me wrong, my computer is up, the lights are on, heat is on, had a long hot shower yesterday, enjoying music from thousands of miles away. I don't live a spartan life. Yet I feel the force of the argument that we have grown soft, pampered, and weak.
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #18 - Nov 6th, 2021 at 1:38pm
 
perpetualstudent wrote on Nov 4th, 2021 at 9:44am:
Yet I feel the force of the argument that we have grown soft, pampered, and weak.

I agree. But I also know that as soon as those luxuries were gone from my life, I would miss them something fierce and regret not having them, possibly to the point of depression.
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #19 - Nov 6th, 2021 at 7:38pm
 
Lots of talk on depression, stress, and pampered life.

I agree.  Living a life of (mostly) ease makes times of stress more damaging.  But it's not difficult to expose yourself to controlled stressful situations, which can make you more adaptable when unplanned situations occur.

Everyday I do breathing exercises which involve holding my breath after an exhale.  I do cold showers daily.  Which is really exciting now because in PA we're getting into cold temperatures, so the water in the shower is pretty darn cold.  And once a week I do an 18 - 20 hour fast.  I'm thinking about extending that, but not there yet.

If anyone is curious, you can look on YouTube for Wim Hof.  I can say this from personal experience, if you're in the shower and turn the hot water off completely, all concerns that might be in your mind go away.  At least for a bit.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #20 - Nov 10th, 2021 at 1:07pm
 
joe_meadmaker wrote on Nov 6th, 2021 at 7:38pm:
it's not difficult to expose yourself to controlled stressful situations, which can make you more adaptable when unplanned situations occur.

I'm a big fan of that approach. I also think there's something to earning a luxury. Enjoying the fruits of your labor. Even without that though thankfulness instead of expectation helps.
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Curious Aardvark
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #21 - Nov 16th, 2021 at 10:36am
 
Morphy wrote on Nov 4th, 2021 at 7:41am:
Because modern society for all its luxuries has a high rate of stress and suicide whereas in modern hunter gatherer cultures suicide, depression and diseases like heart disease and others are almost unheard of.


well you could argue that most of our ancestors were dead long before they ever got around to worrying about mental illness.

In a society where any infection could kill you, life spans weren't that great.

Although they were probably longer than the peasants in early industrial soceity.

You've also got to factor in the fact that ALL primitive soceities we know of practiced slavery.
So that would reduce the slaves life even more while increasing the leisure of the slave takers.

There is a reason early man developed crop cultivation, animal husbandry and plumbing.
They knew all about primitive living and clearly wanted a lot less of it.
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Morphy
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #22 - Nov 19th, 2021 at 7:43am
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 10:36am:
Morphy wrote on Nov 4th, 2021 at 7:41am:
Because modern society for all its luxuries has a high rate of stress and suicide whereas in modern hunter gatherer cultures suicide, depression and diseases like heart disease and others are almost unheard of.


There is a reason early man developed crop cultivation, animal husbandry and plumbing.
They knew all about primitive living and clearly wanted a lot less of it. 


So actually this is a very interesting point that leads to some really deep philosphical questions about how we as humans invent ourselves out of our own happiness.

As you pointed out a common understanding is that we moved away from those societies because those that came later found a better, more “happy” way or living.

I dont think it was a happier way of living I think it was simply a more effcient way of creating large cities with large population densities. Which creates more powerful socieites that can then overtake and co-opt the resources of those smaller hunter gatherer socieites. Actually things like dictatorships and feudalism to my knowledge are not really a big problem with hunter gatherer societies.

Their socities tend to have a more diffused power system rather than having an authortarian leader that makes all the decisions for everyone all the time.
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Curious Aardvark
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #23 - Nov 19th, 2021 at 8:23am
 
Yeah, it basically boils down to population density.
Humans breed like rats, and unlike rats, not much eats us so efficiency was born out of necessity.

And the more people you had, the easier it was to task differentiate.

A hunter could take his Beast to a specialist tanner or 'tailor' and trade some of the meat for getting the fur or leather properly dealt with, while he was left free to go hunt for more.

And when he worked out it made more sense to keep and breed his own beasts rather than hunt wild ones, he had time to make and learn to use a sling.

None of which is particularly relevant to this thread.
Except, why abandon several thousand years of technological progress ?

By all means find some where quiet to live, but do it sensibly. Use the technology to make life more enjoyable.
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #24 - Nov 19th, 2021 at 9:21am
 
I like the temperate zone. With clear sunny days. With hills and mountains, caucasus might be a nice place to live I dont know about the weather there. and in a rural area where I can sling uninterrupted...

Curious Aardvark wrote on Nov 19th, 2021 at 8:23am:
Except, why abandon several thousand years of technological progress ?

if it comes with clutter it's not better it's just different.
with the technology we have we could all live like kings but some want to be more kings than others.
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #25 - Nov 19th, 2021 at 12:45pm
 
I am already barred from most places and soon even supermarkets. I don't go anywhere yet where I go I hear that it is all my fault.  Now they are starting to threathen me where I am. There's no place to go in this world for me except out of it, back to God. It seems this world wants me dead, but I will live.
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #26 - Nov 19th, 2021 at 2:23pm
 
Im not a luddite here. Im not advocating for actually being a hunter gatherer but I think the question of what we can learn from them is a valid one. Nothing wrong with taking the best from each culture right? Clearly in some things they are doing right.
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #27 - Nov 22nd, 2021 at 8:28pm
 
I would combine gardening, pastoralism, hunting and gathering somewhere in a temperate climate with about twenty experienced clansmen  Wink
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #28 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 4:08am
 
walter wrote on Nov 22nd, 2021 at 8:28pm:
with about twenty experienced clansmen

Yes! THe one thing everyone forgets when they talk about going and living out in the middle of nowhere. Humans have never lived in the middle of nowhere because they bring the where with them. Humans are social animals and usually die rather quickly without a group to support them. People point to the odd case here and there of someone surviving out in the wilderness alone but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.
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Re: Where would you go?
Reply #29 - Nov 29th, 2021 at 7:39am
 
   If I chose the traditional lifestyle option I'd move to Nova Scotia.  The place is beautiful, the climate agrees with me, and the people are very welcoming and friendly.
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