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Achaean sling (Read 693 times)
Archaic Arms
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Re: Achaean sling
Reply #15 - Sep 30th, 2021 at 2:35pm
 
I agree with some others that a form of Y sling is being described, but I also believe spiral spin is an important quality for a sling that is used in warfare. Fortunately, in my experiments I discovered that Y slings can be used to spiral stones effectively like 'normal' slings, while maintaining the almost instant release of the Y sling principle.
Could be miles away from the historical sling, but here we go...
I think the pouch could perhaps be a triangle of leather (perhaps multiple layers?) with a very tight running stitch going along through the pouch to make it as inflexible as possible. The three 'thongs' are attached on the corners, with two cords being the release cord and one being the retention. The pouch also has a small triangular hole which would effectively hold both round stones and glandes, the latter being released so that they stably fly point-first.
Here's a quick little drawing:
note- there are numerous other ways this rendition could be executed.
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Lewis.
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J
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Re: Achaean sling
Reply #16 - Sep 30th, 2021 at 2:37pm
 
Quote:
I agree with all of you.
The important thing is to work on the subject. Translation, analysis and hypothesis.
Of course, the assumptions are unverifiable. Therefore do not believe them. But this work makes it possible to deepen our reflections.


Yes a lot of assumptions on my part.

Assuming they were describing the problem of the stone getting deflected by the release cord.
I and plenty others here know how to solve this problem of the conventional sling with adjustments to technique and grip without changing the core tenants of the design, so I can believe they were using a normal sling just with better a understanding of technique, pouch angle and spins while possibly utilizing a more efficient design.

A lot of Greek slinger depictions give me the impressions they used real cords instead of thicker braided or leather strap designs.
And many Greek slinger depictions also show the wide grip in the hand being utilized.
So these things could back that theory up.
And if we assume the Greek style actually existed, then using solely one quick rotation also seems to solve all problems of cord twist and and the infamous 'loss of pouch orientation control' in my experience. Which then prevents this aweful effect of the projectile running down the release cord from ever happening.

At the same time I could believe they were using a Y-sling.

Copy paste the latin quote in google to get all the background informations
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Archaic Arms
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Re: Achaean sling
Reply #17 - Oct 1st, 2021 at 6:51am
 
Another idea:
A bit like an 'Etruscan' sling, but the central strand joins the braid on top (to provide a much narrower 'runway' for the projectile, reducing friction). An additional effect can be gained by making the central shorter than the strands next to it, so while in the loaded position it sits comfortably under the projectile between the split, when the sling opens the central cord lifts the projectile out.
Note - due to the way a sling opens, the belly section of the sling has to be rigid and inflexible in order for this principle to function. (stiffened with stitches perhaps? Wink)
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« Last Edit: Oct 1st, 2021 at 4:47pm by Archaic Arms »  

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funditor
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Re: Achaean sling
Reply #18 - Oct 7th, 2021 at 2:22pm
 
Is the latin passage by Vegetius?
Talking about greek slings, why not ask greek Authors Wink
There is another passage in the Anabasis by Xenophon.
There he talks about the retention cords made from νευρα which can mean a lot of things. Probably not vegetable origin though. Might be nerve strings, or sinew. I could well imagine sinew hammered and torn into thin fibers, and corded or braided or both is thin, though and flexible, like a bowstring. The basic protein is collagen, which is also the main protein in maby other tissues. My construction suggestion is thus a intestines twisted and dried, commercially available as tennis string. Main Protein is collagen. Ethnographically Yamane slings cords in south Chile are made of Walrus guts.  As a pouch simple leather pouch like Vindolanda sling. Goes off as hell. Very light. And quite silent. 30 g bicobic clay bullet like Pförring  or Carnuntum 200m easy. Would work great with lead bullets.
The pouch could be braided or corded with sinew fibers as well I guess...
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Sarosh
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Re: Achaean sling
Reply #19 - Oct 7th, 2021 at 2:42pm
 
funditor wrote on Oct 7th, 2021 at 2:22pm:
There is another passage in the Anabasis by Xenophon.

rhode and achaea would probably have different traditions and I think there is 300 year difference between the events.
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Re: Achaean sling
Reply #20 - Oct 10th, 2021 at 5:23am
 
I so far don't seem to have a problem with putting a spiral spin on my Y-slings granted I can control the orientation. The spin rate is reduced but more consistent per throw I think.

That said I don't think the orientation of the stone in the pouch required for such a release gives the quickest release, but
it can be done. Yesterday I threw some small oval stones very far with my Y-sling placing them in the pouch so they would spiral with the correct orientation, I couldn't see them anymore, they were
flying point first.

I think pointy biconicals wouldn't work the best in the Y-pouch for spiralling but dull ovals can be slung point first.
I've tried such stiff pouches that don't cradle the projectile, on both the conventional and the Y-sling, I don't like it.

I agree that point first flight has significant advantage for increasing range. But it is for overstated importance at close distances. Here a direct release I think is of much greater value. The target isn't going to care on what axis the 200g stone is spinning.
150+g stones also also much less affected by magnus effect.

Doing this inline spin however, with a conventional sling, can result in dangerous deflections by the release cord and a lot of wear,
and a spin rate on stones that is so high that I can not think it it makes sense anymore.  The Y-sling solves this problem, in fact this sling is a result of seeking a solution to this problem of the projectile being fouled by the release cord when throwing inline. So I would say the Y-sling is definitely superior to a conventional sling when the users desires to throw with an inline spin. Only when a spiral spin is correctly utilized and put to practice, I think the conventional sling can still hold an edge over the Y-sling in certain areas.


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Re: Achaean sling
Reply #21 - Oct 28th, 2021 at 10:01am
 
J wrote on Oct 10th, 2021 at 5:23am:
I so far don't seem to have a problem with putting a spiral spin on my Y-slings granted I can control the orientation. The spin rate is reduced but more consistent per throw I think.



Try the wet tennis ball method with a y-sling. You can easily observe the direction of spin, and you can also count the spins per frame to estimate the rate of spin.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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