Slinging.org Forum - Any country that values freedom over safety?

Morphy

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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #75 - Oct 6^th, 2021 at 11:17pm

Hirtius wrote on Oct 6^th, 2021 at 11:05pm:

Could they possibly be lying about being vaccinated? We know that the vaccinated can still catch it and spread it, but it should be reducing hospitalizations and deaths.

I am often privy to various paperwork and medical records they have from previous hospital stays as well as diagnoses and follow ups which are sent to our charting system that I use in my own paperwork. Many have in their history that they have been vaxxed.

But besides that virtually no one that Ive talked to has appeared anything but proud of having got their vax. There is never any pressure here to be vaxed for your average citizen. This isnt like some parts of the country where some areas have significant social pressures for those who havent been. Except for businesses trying to protect against liability general citizens dont really feel much pressure to lie about it here.

The person I referenced from my last shift mentioned it more as an oddity to be laughed at rather than any kind of serious point.

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Hirtius Senior Member Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 272 Gender:	Re: Any country that values freedom over safety? Reply #76 - Oct 7^th, 2021 at 12:35am That’s odd. What would explain the proportion of the vaccinated then? Are many of the vaccinated getting seriously sick or dying? I’ve heard from a nurse that their hospital is still being filled with Covid patients, but largely by the unvaccinated.
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Morphy

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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #77 - Oct 7^th, 2021 at 1:10am

I dont have a good answer for that. I would be lying if I said I did.

Look at Israel. One of the most highly vaxed nations and yet the majority of their hospitalized covid patients are vaxed. Why would that be and yet other places are reporting the opposite? Israel is extremely provax so we can assume any negative results with the vax are not politically motivated. Some articles suggest the immunity waned too quickly. Well...doesnt explain other countries not reporting similar problems. Its been less than a year since the vax came out 2 main shots and a booster should be enough to help.

I think if a person wants to get it, by all means. But doesnt hurt to look at all sides. Personally for a virus like this I think natural immunity is the way to go. For something like smallpox or anthrax sign me up for a vax. But then even with the smallpox vax it actually worked and it worked very well. As do most attenuated live virus vaccines. For some reason they chose to go in a different direction which makes no sense to me.

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Rat Man

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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #78 - Oct 7^th, 2021 at 9:38am

My ex roomie Mike works for a hospital system and has cutting edge information. A few weeks he told me about a problem they were encountering... many people got the first shot but never got their second. I find this incomprehensible. Why would someone do that? What could possibly be the point when the second one is the money shot that actually does the job? He said that a lot of the people who didn't get the second shot claimed that they heard about the reactions and were afraid to get it. So we have a good number of half vaccinated arseholes walking around not really protected who wasted the governments time and money.

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« Last Edit: Oct 7^th, 2021 at 3:58pm by Rat Man »

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Hirtius

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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #79 - Oct 7^th, 2021 at 1:34pm

My guess is that if you have a high percentage of people vaccinated, then the number of people being treated who are vaccinated will go up. However, the number of deaths and overall hospitalizations will go way down. From everything I have seen, the percentage of people getting sick enough to die is way lower among the vaccinated. I would point out that it’s not a silver bullet, it can’t always stop you from catching or getting sick. I know that’s the impression people get from vaccines, but it doesn’t do that. But if it gets rid of most hospitalizations and deaths? That’s still incredibly valuable.

I think you have some unrealistic expectations for this disease since other diseases work a certain way in regards to natural immunity. Smallpox is a disease that you can catch once and be immune for life. The smallpox vaccine is a pretty simple vaccine, since it takes advantage of that trait. Other diseases, I think Cholera is like this, can be caught over and over. Covid seems to be capable of reinfecting, and everything I’ve heard so far suggests that any resistance acquired is temporary.

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Morphy

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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #80 - Oct 7^th, 2021 at 3:57pm

I think you misunderstood my reason for bringing up attenuated vaccines with smallpox vs mrna vaccines with covid. My point was that we have a much more researched vaccine system that not only greatly lessens symptoms just like mrna vaccines can but also give the needed antibodies for your body to kill the virus rather than letting you spread it like wildfire and thus creating a scenario that virtually ensures more deadly variants. If you would like to give your opinion on why the mrna would be the better option by all means please do. But its important you understand the point I was making. Its true the smallpox vaccine was very effective which is great, and yes, we all understand not every vaccine and virus is the same but thats not the crux of the point I was making. Just wanted to clear that up.

Going back to Israel, covid hospitalizations are not all life and death but if you are admitted at the very least you are very sick. As in, serious flu level where you need to be observed to make sure you are stable. Again, why are there "more" vaxed with such severe symptoms vs unvaxed? I didnt see you address this point. I would like to hear your view on that if you have one. That should be an impossibility.

One doesnt go from not sick at all to dead immediately. Therefore hospital admissions should show a pretty 1 to 1 correlation with unaxed showing much higher reprsentation as icu admissions.

Again...not saying the vax doesnt have a purpose. Not saying you shouldnt get it. But the points im making seem to be left unanswered by people because they simply dont have one that maintains their own narratives.

So...lets make this really simple...

Death rates vs vaccination percentage for the top 10 states.

The data is there. If im being super generous Ill just say theres virtually no correlation with increased vax rates to less deaths per capita. Lets just not even mention the amount of top ten vaxed states that are also in that top ten death rates list. That would get messy. Huh

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Rat Man Slinging.org Administrator Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 13913 New Jersey, USA Gender:	Re: Any country that values freedom over safety? Reply #81 - Oct 7^th, 2021 at 4:02pm Let's make it really simple: https://medicalpartnership.usg.edu/covid-19-staggering-statistic-98-to-99-of-ame ricans-dying-are-unvaccinated/
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Morphy

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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #82 - Oct 7^th, 2021 at 4:33pm

Rat Man wrote on Oct 7^th, 2021 at 4:02pm:

Let's make it really simple:

https://medicalpartnership.usg.edu/covid-19-staggering-statistic-98-to-99-of-ame
ricans-dying-are-unvaccinated/

Do you have a direct link to the study? That would be helpful in seeing both sides.

I will refrain from comenting directly on this until seeing other sources. If this were true that would be great. It does not, however, explain any of the numbers ive given from very solid sources. If it truly is less than 1 percent that are dying in America why the massive difference in other places using the same vaccines with similar populations and medical care.

I never hear answers to these questions.

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Morphy

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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #83 - Oct 7^th, 2021 at 4:53pm

Oh wait... this is not even a study. Its the associated press doing an analysis of data. Who knows what data they chose to look at and what they didnt. Also didnt see a link but I was expecting at least a scientific study.

So lets be clear here I could also find an article by a news organization to give me whatever result I wanted. I never do that because media is inherently biased. Incredibly so. So with all due respect my good man Ill pass on this one unless it directly links back to something more authoritative and reliable than the media.

If you find a real study showing that I would like to see it. Even with scientific studies, for example with Ivermectin, they can be done in such a way that you can get a whatever result you want if you really want to but at least with the peer reviewed system you have some small measure of opposition to questionable interpretations.

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Rat Man

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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #84 - Oct 8^th, 2021 at 9:15am

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210629/almost-all-us-covi...

https://nypost.com/2021/09/08/99-percent-of-covid-19-hospitalizations-from-unvac
cinated-data/

https://www.firstpost.com/health/unvaccinated-people-are-11-times-more-likely-to...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/07/01/995-of-people-killed-by-cov...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/04/30/fact-check-misleading-c...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-severe-outcomes-covid-vaccination...

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e5.htm

https://www.cnet.com/health/99-of-covid-deaths-are-now-of-unvaccinated-people-ex...

https://www.foxnews.com/health/nearly-all-covid-19-deaths-us-unvaccinated

https://www.npr.org/2021/07/16/1017012853/97-of-people-entering-hospitals-for-co...

https://www.ibj.com/articles/state-unvaccinated-make-up-huge-percentage-of-covid...

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/statistics-show-risks-vaccinated-covid-19/story?id
=78845627

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perpetualstudent

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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #85 - Oct 8^th, 2021 at 9:43am

Ah that's how they did it"fully vaccinated". So if you had one shot you count as entirely unvaccinated.

The reason it trigger's morphy and my skepticism is because that's too pretty (99%), especially when about half the people hospitalized in the UK were fully vaccinated. Given that, it smells like propaganda.

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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."

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Rat Man Slinging.org Administrator Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 13913 New Jersey, USA Gender:	Re: Any country that values freedom over safety? Reply #86 - Oct 8^th, 2021 at 3:18pm Lots of "propaganda" from many reputable sources. Many more than I listed.
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Rat Man

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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #87 - Oct 8^th, 2021 at 3:24pm

Since the subject of abortion has come up here, though God only knows why, I'll add my two cents.
Birth control is a much better option, obviously. But accidents happen. Also acts of passion occur. We don't always think things through. Then there's rape. So if a woman finds herself accidentally pregnant it is no one's business but hers what she does. Period. If you're morally or religiously opposed to abortion then don't have one. You have no right to tell others how to live. If you want to live in a theocracy then move to Iran.

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Morphy

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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #88 - Oct 8^th, 2021 at 4:50pm

perpetualstudent wrote on Oct 8^th, 2021 at 9:43am:

Ah that's how they did it"fully vaccinated". So if you had one shot you count as entirely unvaccinated.

The reason it trigger's morphy and my skepticism is because that's too pretty (99%), especially when about half the people hospitalized in the UK were fully vaccinated. Given that, it smells like propaganda.

Yep you hit the nail on the head. Papers showing 99% effectiveness and then actual real world numbers that are just wildly out of line with whats stated. And never, ever do you get a logical answer as to why. When your study or theory doesnt match real world results you know its the methodology thats wrong not the real world results. You cant change the one so you must reevaluate the other.

Below is indicative of the constant double speak weve gotten from the government since day 1.

https://odysee.com/@YoungCoconutMusic:a/cdc-says-vaxxed-just-as-likely-to-get-co...

I imagine the vaccine does offer some protection. But how anyone can look at 99% effectiveness and believe that regardless of the evidence to the contrary is beyond me. Theres nothing wrong with admitting something doesnt make sense or perhaps its being oversold to help get people to take it. At the same time dont ignore the fact that what is being said doesnt add up.

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Morphy

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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #89 - Oct 8^th, 2021 at 6:48pm

Heres a very simple thought experiment for anyone bogged down by all the long posts.

Explain how any country can have the majority of its seriously ill patients as vaccinated if its 99% effective at stopping serious symptoms and death. In fact we need not even mention 99%. Just explain how a large group with significantly "more" protection against the virus can also make up the majority of those seriously ill.

All studies aside that one point should be enough to make you question what you are being told more skeptically.

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