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Any country that values freedom over safety? (Read 11398 times)
Morphy
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #30 - Aug 24th, 2021 at 7:34am
 
Lots of differing viewpoints here. I try to be nuanced in my understanding (i know a couple of you got a laugh at that one) but in todays world its almost impossible not to be lumped on one side or the other. Heres a quick list of my beliefs so far.

1. Im provaccination and skeptical but still procovid vaccination. Ive just seen some things that make me want to wait before injecting myself. I will be taking it if I can find some resolution to the things Ive seen.

2. I have to disagree that covid isnt a pandemic. I do understand where Lightning Jack is coming from but not all pandemics have to be as bad as the plague to fit that definition. Thank God its not the plague. I see the effects of covid every day. Yes its serious sh1t.

3. There is definitely censorship on the subject. So much so that its almost impossible to find opposing scientific viewpoints from good sources. Not impossible mind you, but they instantly get buried under a mountain of google returns for the mainstream narrative. If you dont believe there is censorship you probably need to do more research.

4. My biggest concern is that people in power are using this situation to take away freedoms. My desire to balance freedom with safety does not make me selfish. Nor does my belief that people in power do evil things to gain more power make me delusional. I am on the right side of history on both of those statements.

5. I do not believe anyone is a mindless sheep for having their beliefs. We all are coming at this with different backgrounds and biases. None of us are bias free. But this is where open dialogue has to be allowed. Censorship and mocking do not increase freedom. Censoring one scientific view is not the same as there being a world wide 100% scientific consensus.
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« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2021 at 3:23pm by Morphy »  
 
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Sarosh
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #31 - Aug 24th, 2021 at 12:28pm
 
Morphy wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:37am:
At what level of tyranny/censorship would you decide that you cant go along with the what youre told to do anymore? Or how about less than that. At what point do you say wait a second this seems a little odd.

When my driving license was more credible than my ID because my "ID can be easily forged", it was a little odd*. we have ingrained to us by society since childhood that a man with the right uniform can handle you as he pleases. So it might require a couple of punches to realize you can't obey anymore or even more because you might be so sick that you think you deserve it.

*my freedom and life depends on a document created by an authority that disputes it
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #32 - Aug 24th, 2021 at 3:02pm
 
joe_meadmaker wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:54pm:
perpetualstudent wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:35am:
The current vaccine wasn't designed to be effective against the Delta variant.  60% (or thereabouts, I've heard as low as 40%) is just what it happens to be doing because there are similarities with the earlier strains.  Vaccination for Delta will likely end up being a booster shot, or another vaccine entirely.

joe_meadmaker wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:54pm:
[quote author=73667173667776626F70777667666D77030 link=1629474512/19#19 date=1629722126]we start admitting that the vaccine's effectivity isn't almost 100 but rather almost 60 percent (https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/british-study-shows-....)

The current vaccine wasn't designed to be effective against the Delta variant.  60% (or thereabouts, I've heard as low as 40%) is just what it happens to be doing because there are similarities with the earlier strains.  Vaccination for Delta will likely end up being a booster shot, or another vaccine entirely.


True as far as it goes. Which isn't very far. Note the other link I gave where researchers said "nobody expected this vaccine to confer immunity" and that was before Delta became the dominant variant. You can also take a look at (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58270098) where we are finally beginning to ask the questions about robust immunity (the vaccine's response is smaller, this shouldn't be a surprise). Should we get locked in endless boosters? It'll mutate again. Viruses we can eradicate are the exception not the rule. We roll out delta boosters, the epsilon variant or another will be dominant.

You can choose whether the talking heads deliberately misled or were ignorant (and you can also decide which is scarier) but herd immunity is off the table. By researcher's own admissions, it may never have been on the table.
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Rat Man
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #33 - Aug 24th, 2021 at 3:30pm
 
    I'm about erroring on the side of caution.  If my best guess is right then wearing a mask, getting vaccinated, and avoiding social gatherings are inconveniences that could eventually save my live and/or keep me from killing someone else.   If I'm wrong nothing happens.  I wasted a little time and effort and I'm fine.  It seems like a no brainer to me.
    This is an honest question.  What freedom have I lost by getting vaccinated?  I can't think of any.  I surely don't feel like I lost any particular freedom.  My life is still the same. 
   Should we get locked into endless boosters?  Sure, why not? If that's what it takes.  Isn't that what we already do with the flu?
    I'd like to add that I don't consider anyone here an idiot.  We all have our opinion but no one really knows for sure how this will  play out.  Only time will tell. 
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #34 - Aug 24th, 2021 at 3:42pm
 
Far be it from me to stand in any one's way for their life choices. You want to wear a mask, live in isolation, get endless experimental vaccines? Sure go ahead. You want to mandate those same things to everyone else? Well, then we have an issue.

This winds up a thorny question because if this was airborne aids, we would compel that and much much more. On the spectrum between airborne aids and the sniffles, this is a lot closer to the sniffles. So we do actually have to count the costs. The costs to small business owners, the costs to children's developments, the costs to avg people who lost livelihoods and life savings, for a disease with a ceiling mortality of 2%
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Morphy
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #35 - Aug 24th, 2021 at 5:58pm
 
I think Im going to go ahead and try and make a small video with some of the reasons why those who are skeptical are that way. Not all of us get our science or opinions from facebook although the media would have you believe otherwise.

Everytime I find a study or scientific opinion expressing concern over aspects of how things are being handled I immediately go to the CDC or other mainstream sources to get the opposing view.

I can tell you, and Im not speaking of anyone in particular here on this site, that so many of the people who pretend like I or others are ignorant for being skeptical do NOT hold themselves to the same standards. Likely they havent even bothered to look at *any* opposing science on it but somehow feel they hold the intellectual high ground because of appeal to majority.

RM, if what you were saying was the whole of the matter I would agree completely. Unfortunately there are aspects of this that are not so black and white. PS mentioned one.
Another is the fact that studies have been done before covid was ever a thing warning about the danger that vaccinating like this (especially with a vaccine that doesnt kill or stop transmission of the virus), would actually create a climate where evolutionary pressure is put on this novel virus to evolve into more virulent strains.

On the other hand-

We all have our opinion but no one really knows for sure how this will  play out.  Only time will tell. 

^this is very well said and I couldnt agree more. None of has a damn clue about how this will all play out. Lets hope to God these vaccines dont end up causing cancer or some other disease years in the future because with this many people getting it after so little time spent in the human testing phase thats a nightmare scenario.

Ive been collecting a lot of links and info on differing views on this subject. Assuming my 2017 Ipad is up to the task Ill make a video showing stuff like this as well as odd things that really make you wonder how valid the things we are being told are.

Theres way too many things to do any of it justice on this thread.
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Morphy
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #36 - Aug 24th, 2021 at 6:03pm
 
Sarosh wrote on Aug 24th, 2021 at 12:28pm:
Morphy wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:37am:
At what level of tyranny/censorship would you decide that you cant go along with the what youre told to do anymore? Or how about less than that. At what point do you say wait a second this seems a little odd.

When my driving license was more credible than my ID because my "ID can be easily forged", it was a little odd*. we have ingrained to us by society since childhood that a man with the right uniform can handle you as he pleases. So it might require a couple of punches to realize you can't obey anymore or even more because you might be so sick that you think you deserve it.

*my freedom and life depends on a document created by an authority that disputes it


All good points. What really got me was when you said you have to text the government to go places. Thats unreal. What a crazy world we live in now. I wish I knew where you could go. Montana maybe?
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Sarosh
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #37 - Aug 25th, 2021 at 12:26pm
 
I don't know if this happens in other countries.
The vaccinated will not require self testing to go to places, while those who haven't vaccinated will require it.but if we are going to have variants shouldn't everyone do tests to not spread disease?
The testing is used like a punishment to those who didn't vaccinate instead of really learning about the virus and protecting ourselves. Also the best way to show that the vaccine works is to not test the vaccinated.to show that the disease is deadly test those in the hospitals. Basic data manipulation.
It seems that we are going to have another quarantine even though a lot of people are vaccinated and it's going to be blamed on the unvaccinated.
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #38 - Aug 25th, 2021 at 6:58pm
 
Morphy wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:37am:
Open question:

At what level of tyranny/censorship would you decide that you cant go along with the what youre told to do anymore? Or how about less than that. At what point do you say wait a second this seems a little odd.

Honestly, this is a real question. Im sure everyones line in the sand is different. Have you considered that question for yourselves?

If you are waiting for some guy to appear from behind a curtain, twist his mustache and say "Mwahahahah", thats never going to happen.

What will happen is a constant series of fear inducing crises where the only answer is to give up a little more freedom each time. Then one day it will get so bad that the people will collectively say "how did we get here?" And the answer is always the same. One step at a time. Each step was for the greater good, each step was to narrowly avert disaster, each step was to prove your patriotism or your devotion to the collective or to embrace "progress".

It keeps happening. Over and over. And each time a generation or two or three has to suffer horrifically before they learn that lesson only for it to be forgotten with the upcoming generations. Each time the upcoming generations are 100% sure it can happen somewhere else but not "here". Wherever here may be.

So again, what's your line in the sand? Ive played my hand but I am genuinely curious to see others breaking points so to speak.


Any crisis is always created by someone outwardly, but never by itself. Sarosh's opinion is very similar to mine. If I died from covid, I would not change my mind either. In 2019, I fell ill with pneumonia, part of my lungs burned out, I went to the clinic at the 2nd week of illness, passed tests. I had every chance of dying from complete combustion of the lungs, just like from the coronavirus. BUT why is it not a coronavirus? As people die from the flu, no one did anything about it, everyone just stood and watched. The flu constantly mutates into new strains, please pay attention to this, with the advent of coronavirus in which the mortality rate is 4-6%, all other diseases have faded into the background.

Masks are very harmful, the dentist said, it is very harmful to breathe carbon dioxide into the fabric during the working day. The mouth is the dirtiest place in a person, we harm ourselves with bacteria.

Why doesn't any government in the world ban alcohol from which millions of deaths every year? Will not solve the problem of mortality of cardiovascular diseases and cancer? Why, if they care so much about citizens - I have never understood and will not understand this. Maybe I'm just a fool, I don't understand that coronavirus is the most terrible disease on the planet, and governments in the 21st century could not prevent and predict all this in advance, but launched the situation before such lockdowns?

A very interesting topic. The question of speculation in our rights under the pretext of security, I thought for a long time for the first time

If there is no one to protect us from, then the police will not be needed, as there are such countries without crime and police. Therefore, crime is needed at the expense of alcohol so that we think that we need help. But I’m not against the police, I just don’t understand why the situation should be launched so that everything can be chopped off at the root. Take away alcohol, prohibit, take away poverty, put things in order in people's heads and there will be no crime. There are many ways to rid the world of crime

According to the logic of tests when crossing the border of states, you need to have a test that you are not sick, but why should I not do a test every day while at home? What if I accidentally fell ill? As if the chances of contracting coronavirus at home are less than in another country. In general, every day, 5 times you need to do a test according to this logic
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #39 - Aug 25th, 2021 at 7:07pm
 
And every year. There were seasonal illnesses, many people got sick with colds, and no one did anything about it. Isn't it suspicious for so long and quarantined schools back in 2012 and after and earlier?
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #40 - Aug 25th, 2021 at 7:21pm
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 7:58am:
1) how does a government benefit by practically bankrupting itself in a massive effort to both save people's lives from a proven threat. And also pay the wages of people for an entire year.

But before the coronavirus, there were enough threats that had a high mortality rate, higher than that of the coronavirus, so much so that you have to lie and overestimate the mortality rate from the coronavirus so that it can somehow be compared. I have not seen borders close because of the flu, although you can see the death rate from it around the world is high
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #41 - Aug 25th, 2021 at 7:40pm
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:27am:
I personally, have no desire to harm others, so exactly None of my 'personal freedoms' have ever been denied me. Nor can I envisage how they could be.

I think you need to become an introvert and not leave the house at all. After all, there are many diseases that are transmitted all the same through the contacts of the handshake and the breathing of people, they have not gone anywhere. In the end, leaving the house, and walking down the street, you can crush an insect, there is always a chance to harm someone. You can't get vaccinated against all diseases, or can you? Correct me sir
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #42 - Aug 25th, 2021 at 7:49pm
 
Rat Man wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:29am:
    No one has the right to spread disease.

I think that potentially everyone can carry, except for covid, a disease that they do not know about

you can tolerate skin diseases, tuberculosis, is it possible to warn yourself and others against everything when leaving home? You must know that the vaccine interferes with the development of your own immunity, you are injected with body agents like a virus
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #43 - Aug 25th, 2021 at 7:59pm
 
Quote:
Do any of you even realize that there really is no pandemic? You guys do not know what a pandemic is. The Black Plague was a pandemic with a 99% death rate, people dead all over the place. It also spread faster than wildfire. Now fast forward to the present. We have this sickness COVID-19 (a slightly stronger common cold with a fancy name) and people are being forced to wear a mask and take vaccines (in some countries) for a sickness that has a 99% recovery rate and the people on the news say it spreads fast but if it did everyone should have had it by now. Also I thought that we have the right to chose if we want some foreign matter pumped into our bloodstream or not. Also you say that the government is doing it for health and safety but if that were true why don’t they ban cigarettes and alcohol?


I completely agree. I express a similar opinion, because what governments around the world have done will lead to hunger and a crisis, from which many more people will die than from the coronavirus. Correct me if I am mistaken.
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #44 - Aug 25th, 2021 at 8:04pm
 
Hirtius wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 9:35pm:
Third, Covid isn’t a “slightly stronger common cold with a fancy name”, it’s a new and very different disease that easily has 10 times the mortality rate, and can seriously mess some people up.

But as practice shows, the coronavirus only finishes those who are already sick. That is why it is dangerous for those who are sick with diabetes, cancer, cardiovascular diseases, and people with weak immunity and age. It is dangerous for those who are already at risk from their lifestyle or heredity. I know what I'm talking about as a child, I was constantly sick with sore throat, arthritis, and could not walk because of pain in my knees, in which case it is easy to say that the coronavirus is dangerous to me, because I am already sick. It's just
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