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Any country that values freedom over safety? (Read 13658 times)
Curious Aardvark
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #15 - Aug 23rd, 2021 at 7:58am
 
I've talked to as many conspiracy theorists as I can In the last couple of years.
And I have never once got a straight answer to a couple of very simple questions.

1) how does a government benefit by practically bankrupting itself in a massive effort to both save people's lives from a proven threat. And also pay the wages of people for an entire year.

2) exactly what 'freedoms' are being lost or eroded ? That actually existed, before covid 19.

So far I have not had a single answer to either question.

In America - over and above the usual deaths - over half a million extra people have died.
Because they are scattered throughout the entire country, it's fairly easy to not feel astonished or outraged.
Had a single, fair sized city been wiped out by a virus. The response would have been completely different.

Same disease, same number if deaths, but there would have been a completely different response in the major population.

Obviously the same people would have claimed conspiracy, again without being able to point to a single reason for such an action.

But if cities and towns were wiped out wholesale - the impact of the same number of deaths would have been much greater.

As an example. If all the deaths and misery caused by alcohol consumption were concentrated in a single city - people would do something about it.

People are fundamentally selfish.

Me I wore a face mask and used the sanitiser and kept clear if people during lockdown, to protect my family. Not anyone elses.

As it turns out, I have natural immunity to Corona viruses. But I've had my vaccines and got my passport.
Because it means I can go back to normal life. Not for anyone elses benefit but for mine.

And to a large extent that's how human society functions. Everyone looking out for themselves actually ends up benefitting the vast majority.

It only goes tits up when you get people who don't even want to benefit themselves.
Who believe in some mysterious and never explained conspiracy, that is aimed at them specifically.

The government/illuminati/big pharma/Microsoft/pick your villain, is specifically targeting them for, again no actually specified reason.

That attitude is mainly down to people wanting to feel important, what's more important than the big boys specifically targeting them as individuals.

But at the end of the day humans are mainly driven by a system of 'what's in it for me'.

And quite simply, there is nothing in it for most governments to use the resources they have in trying to stop this disease.

Stopping the disease is 'whats in it for them'.
People go back to work, society starts up again and taxes can be gathered, monies can once again be embezzled and politicians can once more jump back on the gravy train.

Because it again turns out that what is beneficial for the general population, is doubly beneficial for the people at the top of the pyramid and their bank accounts.

Now obviously there are a few exceptions and a number of companies and government employees who have directly benefitted from the pandemic.
But it's individuals and NOT governments as a whole.

There is no conspiracy, there is just a nasty disease, human nature and the constant clamouring cry of: ' what's in it for me ?'
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Curious Aardvark
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #16 - Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:27am
 
As far as surviving in the wilderness without modern conveniences.
Well yeah, entire groups of people do it all the time.

You learn skills, you learn to live in and from your environment and you accept the fact that you live Solely to survive.

As far as something as esoteric as 'personal freedoms' goes

Go find somewhere oif the grid. And you will have the freedom to starve to death and the freedom to spend your whole life just surviving the day to day exigencies of life.

Or do you want the 'right' to harm others with unpunity ?
That's pretty much the only 'freedom' modern society tries to deny you.

I personally, have no desire to harm others, so exactly None of my 'personal freedoms' have ever been denied me. Nor can I envisage how they could be.

But I'm not delusional enough to feel that I'm important enough for some faceless megalithic organisation to give a damn what I choose to do.
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Rat Man
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #17 - Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:29am
 
     Well said, c_a.  The vast majority of the time this holds true.  There are some selfless people out there who genuinely care about the welfare of others but they are the exception.  So far four and a half million people have died from Covid.  When compared to the total world population this is a small number and would seem inconsequential.  Unless you or a loved one was one of the four and a half million.
     The last time we were completely free was when we were hunter/gatherers.  Once we settled into agrarian communities we had to give up some of our freedom. Laws are necessary to prevent chaos. FREEDOM IS A RELATIVE TERM. 
    No one has the right to spread disease.
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Rat Man
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #18 - Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:32am
 
Quote:
This basically sums up what I think of the whole thing


And if this was the whole story I'd totally agree with you.  You're leaving out the fact that Covid rapidly evolves into more virulent strains.  That's the real danger.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #19 - Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:35am
 
As we mentioned in the last thread C_A, power is its own end. Having to have papers (or the proper app) in order to leave your house wasn't in the cards in western civ pre-covid. Sure most people took their phones, and govs admittedly tracked them, but there's still a difference. A big one.

@morphy
That's a damn good question. "When legitimate means fail to achieve redress". Is one answer, but one I fear is too simplistic. We will endure much tyranny to keep our families safe. The herd can endure much. But there's a point where the herd snaps. The French are my go to example here. The terror wasn't an improvement over the aristocracy but the herd hit the point where they were willing to roll the dice.

When ~90% vaccination plus a papers citizen app to leave your house isn't enough (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-58245285) and we start admitting that the vaccine's effectivity isn't almost 100 but rather almost 60 percent (https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/british-study-shows-...) the narrative of "if everybody just obeyed we'd be back to normal" starts falling apart. Especially when people say things like
Quote:
"When the vaccines were first developed, nobody was thinking that they were going to prevent infection," said Carlos del Rio, a professor of medicine and infectious disease epidemiology at Emory University in Atlanta.
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/how-delta-variant-upends-assumptions-about-c...
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Sarosh
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #20 - Aug 23rd, 2021 at 9:17am
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 7:58am:
1) how does a government benefit by practically bankrupting itself in a massive effort to both save people's lives from a proven threat. And also pay the wages of people for an entire year.

2) exactly what 'freedoms' are being lost or eroded ? That actually existed, before covid 19.


I'll try to answer these.
1)the government may bankrupt itself while the people in it become rich and powerful, in fact that is the easy way to do things. e.g. bankrupt the public electricity company while shorting it. destroy or depreciate public infrastructure and services and replace it with private companies that do the job "better" the private companies make profit that goes to individuals in a way that the public company didn't allow.

who's trying to save people's lives? the government has done that depreciation in the health sector, less beds, less doctors, less hospitals. cops beating doctors and nurses that request for more doctors and nurses, at the same time the government hires cops and buys police equipment. in the summer time covid restrictions stop but covid is still here.

is it a proven threat? a virus exists, where are the real data? it has been discussed before that there is profit to be made in falsifying data and we know politicians and scientists that have withheld info regarding where the covid started from. now if it is 2% death rate why is that important? aren't there bigger threats with higher death rates that we turn the blind eye to because there is no profit to be made?or because there is not enough sensationalism to move the masses in a coordinated manner?

the wages of people for an entire year, not really. where are the money taken from and where do they end up?

2)The freedom to go where I want when I want without it being illegal. The freedom to state an opinion at the place I used to without it being illegal.

Curious Aardvark wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:27am:
But I'm not delusional enough to feel that I'm important enough for some faceless megalithic organisation to give a damn what I choose to do.

Is it delusional to think that a government should serve its people? it gives a damn if you pay taxes
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Morphy
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #21 - Aug 23rd, 2021 at 9:47am
 
Actually virtually all very powerful organizations pay big money to know as much about you and everyone else as possible. From coorporations to political parties to intelligence agencies and social media. This isnt even an open secret. Its openly admitted.

@Perpetual_Student- Thats a good theoretical point. I do like the succinctness of that definition. But I also feel like, as you implied, the vast majority of the people would always say "well its just a little more freedom lost" "its for the greater good."  Maybe the answer is there is no good answer which is why we seem destined to relive this particular cycle over and over till the end of time.
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #22 - Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:41pm
 
Morphy wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:37am:
Open question:

At what level of tyranny/censorship would you decide that you cant go along with the what youre told to do anymore? Or how about less than that. At what point do you say wait a second this seems a little odd.

Honestly, this is a real question. Im sure everyones line in the sand is different. Have you considered that question for yourselves?

If you are waiting for some guy to appear from behind a curtain, twist his mustache and say "Mwahahahah", thats never going to happen.

What will happen is a constant series of fear inducing crises where the only answer is to give up a little more freedom each time. Then one day it will get so bad that the people will collectively say "how did we get here?" And the answer is always the same. One step at a time. Each step was for the greater good, each step was to narrowly avert disaster, each step was to prove your patriotism or your devotion to the collective or to embrace "progress".


Good question. At what level of tyranny or censorship? Well, I’ll be concerned when I actually see tyranny or censorship. Making people take measures to protect the health of everyone is not what I would typically count as “tyranny”. I think in most US states (29, I think), there are laws criminalizing knowingly spreading HIV. In every other state, I think they apply the general “reckless endangerment” instead of something specific. Should you be free to spread around a disease? To me, that seems like you’re infringing on the safety of others.

What I consider as actions that might lead to tyranny are complete loyalty to a particular person, trying to overturn a fair democratic election, ransacking the seat of government and issuing threats to elected officials, and trying to make certain things illegal to teach in schools (which might not have even been taught in the first place) for fear that it might reveal some unpleasant truths. Thankfully, I live in America where none of this would ever happen.

Now, I should be fair here. Has Covid led to tyrannical governments exerting more control over the populace? Absolutely. But are our existing democracies using Covid for some vaguely defined nefarious evil? No. For the anti-vax Americans out there, you do realize that a good chunk of the government is saying a lot of the same things you do? That’s because we the people put those people there. The government is not some underground evil force, it’s a reflection of ourselves that is just as messy as the whole picture.
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #23 - Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:57pm
 
Curious Aardvark, I agree that we’re largely creatures that look out for ourselves. However, I believe there is a part of us that is selfless. Maybe it’s just disguised selfishness to shape the world into one that is safer for us. Either way, I think we need to lean into that.

Sarosh wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 9:17am:
2)The freedom to go where I want when I want without it being illegal. The freedom to state an opinion at the place I used to without it being illegal.


You should try moving to most of the developed world. At least in the United States, I can say anything I damn well please. No opinion is illegal. Just don’t threaten people bodily harm.

Wanting to go where you want? Sure, but that’s trickier. Should you be able to break into your neighbor’s house, or even any stranger’s, any time you want? I wouldn’t like a place like that. In your case, you have the fires. If they let people out and about in those areas, couldn’t people accidentally start fires that endanger others? Couldn’t you end up in danger, with rescuers obligated to risk their life to save you? From what you’ve told me, those restrictions aren’t unreasonable. But I’m probably just a mindless sheep who believes in protecting  the property and lives of others.
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Morphy
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #24 - Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:59pm
 
Hirtius- 2nd paragraph - I completely agree.

1st paragraph- No censorship? Interesting...

3rd- paragraph- ok fair points. Thank you for your thoughts.
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #25 - Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:29pm
 
Do any of you even realize that there really is no pandemic? You guys do not know what a pandemic is. The Black Plague was a pandemic with a 99% death rate, people dead all over the place. It also spread faster than wildfire. Now fast forward to the present. We have this sickness COVID-19 (a slightly stronger common cold with a fancy name) and people are being forced to wear a mask and take vaccines (in some countries) for a sickness that has a 99% recovery rate and the people on the news say it spreads fast but if it did everyone should have had it by now. Also I thought that we have the right to chose if we want some foreign matter pumped into our bloodstream or not. Also you say that the government is doing it for health and safety but if that were true why don’t they ban cigarettes and alcohol?
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #26 - Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:54pm
 
perpetualstudent wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:35am:
we start admitting that the vaccine's effectivity isn't almost 100 but rather almost 60 percent (https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/british-study-shows-....)

The current vaccine wasn't designed to be effective against the Delta variant.  60% (or thereabouts, I've heard as low as 40%) is just what it happens to be doing because there are similarities with the earlier strains.  Vaccination for Delta will likely end up being a booster shot, or another vaccine entirely.


@Lightning Jack - While pandemics are often looked at in terms of the mortality rate, a high mortality rate isn't required for it to be a pandemic.  That ultimately just falls to what definition you want to use.
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #27 - Aug 23rd, 2021 at 9:35pm
 
Quote:
Do any of you even realize that there really is no pandemic? You guys do not know what a pandemic is. The Black Plague was a pandemic with a 99% death rate, people dead all over the place. It also spread faster than wildfire. Now fast forward to the present. We have this sickness COVID-19 (a slightly stronger common cold with a fancy name) and people are being forced to wear a mask and take vaccines (in some countries) for a sickness that has a 99% recovery rate and the people on the news say it spreads fast but if it did everyone should have had it by now. Also I thought that we have the right to chose if we want some foreign matter pumped into our bloodstream or not. Also you say that the government is doing it for health and safety but if that were true why don’t they ban cigarettes and alcohol?


Firstly, as Joe_meadmaker said, pandemics aren’t defined by mortality. It’s just a globally occurring outbreak of a disease.

Second, the Black Plague probably didn’t have a 99% mortality. A very high mortality (maybe 50 - 70%), but there were survivors. During the plague of Justinian (the same disease), the emperor caught it but survived. Survivors were terribly scarred.

Third, Covid isn’t a “slightly stronger common cold with a fancy name”, it’s a new and very different disease that easily has 10 times the mortality rate, and can seriously mess some people up.

Finally, the government (US government, sorry everyone else) actually has tried banning both those things. Cigarettes are being legally pushed out of most areas and are increasingly taxed. As for alcohol, there was this little era called prohibition when a ban on alcohol was added to the constitution. If you’re American, you might have heard of it.  The government didn’t have the power to stop people from violating that law, and popular support that had brought that amendment into being soon forced it out. It was a failure. Just like with Covid, the government isn’t an all powerful entity that can do stuff like that on a whim. It’s an organization subject to the sentiment of the people, even when it doesn’t feel like it.
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Sarosh
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #28 - Aug 24th, 2021 at 4:29am
 
Hirtius wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:57pm:
You should try moving to most of the developed world. At least in the United States, I can say anything I damn well please. No opinion is illegal. Just don’t threaten people bodily harm.

from what I know you can state your opinion only on the web and at places it doesn't matter. I think in your country you had police arresting or attacking people in their homes for being at a place the police didn't like, we had that also.
my country is considered developed and I think that developed countries are becoming the most toxic places to be, too many teargas invitations to peace...

Hirtius wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:57pm:
Wanting to go where you want? Sure, but that’s trickier. Should you be able to break into your neighbor’s house, or even any stranger’s, any time you want? I wouldn’t like a place like that. In your case, you have the fires. If they let people out and about in those areas, couldn’t people accidentally start fires that endanger others? Couldn’t you end up in danger, with rescuers obligated to risk their life to save you? From what you’ve told me, those restrictions aren’t unreasonable. But I’m probably just a mindless sheep who believes in protecting  the property and lives of others.

you are ignoring the context of our conversation which is about covid. The places I was able to go before I can no longer access. The hours I was able to be outside of my house have been restricted. We had to SMS the government that we are going out of the house and what we are gonna do.

the fires are arson even police said that.
last year a fire started at 3am in the mountains the media said it was self ignition, a wildfire. a wildfire without sun at the coldest time of the day.demonstration of 1000 IQ by national TV.
people might start fires accidentaly all year round. People are responsible for their meat and bones if they are not send them back to school or take their driving license because that is a very dangerous thing to do for someone irresponsible.

now why the fire restrictions are a little unreasonable.
1) denying access to public will not stop criminals
2) by removing the public you have removed all eyes from an area at which you dont have enough fire detection in the first place, not enough personnel or equipment in the fire department politicians made sure of that

the gov is constantly buying police equipment but no fire fighting equipment.
we expect the fires to extinguish with volunteers with little equipment, with self awareness spread by NGOs supported by the government, and we are gonna help the affected with donations and charities. but lets keep believing that the government protects us.


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Sarosh
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #29 - Aug 24th, 2021 at 4:33am
 
So Any country that values freedom over safety?
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