I've talked to as many conspiracy theorists as I can In the last couple of years.
And I have never once got a straight answer to a couple of very simple questions.

1) how does a government benefit by practically bankrupting itself in a massive effort to both save people's lives from a proven threat. And also pay the wages of people for an entire year.

2) exactly what 'freedoms' are being lost or eroded ? That actually existed, before covid 19.

So far I have not had a single answer to either question.

In America - over and above the usual deaths - over half a million extra people have died.
Because they are scattered throughout the entire country, it's fairly easy to not feel astonished or outraged.
Had a single, fair sized city been wiped out by a virus. The response would have been completely different.

Same disease, same number if deaths, but there would have been a completely different response in the major population.

Obviously the same people would have claimed conspiracy, again without being able to point to a single reason for such an action.

But if cities and towns were wiped out wholesale - the impact of the same number of deaths would have been much greater.

As an example. If all the deaths and misery caused by alcohol consumption were concentrated in a single city - people would do something about it.

People are fundamentally selfish.

Me I wore a face mask and used the sanitiser and kept clear if people during lockdown, to protect my family. Not anyone elses.

As it turns out, I have natural immunity to Corona viruses. But I've had my vaccines and got my passport.
Because it means I can go back to normal life. Not for anyone elses benefit but for mine.

And to a large extent that's how human society functions. Everyone looking out for themselves actually ends up benefitting the vast majority.

It only goes tits up when you get people who don't even want to benefit themselves.
Who believe in some mysterious and never explained conspiracy, that is aimed at them specifically.

The government/illuminati/big pharma/Microsoft/pick your villain, is specifically targeting them for, again no actually specified reason.

That attitude is mainly down to people wanting to feel important, what's more important than the big boys specifically targeting them as individuals.

But at the end of the day humans are mainly driven by a system of 'what's in it for me'.

And quite simply, there is nothing in it for most governments to use the resources they have in trying to stop this disease.

Stopping the disease is 'whats in it for them'.
People go back to work, society starts up again and taxes can be gathered, monies can once again be embezzled and politicians can once more jump back on the gravy train.

Because it again turns out that what is beneficial for the general population, is doubly beneficial for the people at the top of the pyramid and their bank accounts.

Now obviously there are a few exceptions and a number of companies and government employees who have directly benefitted from the pandemic.
But it's individuals and NOT governments as a whole.

There is no conspiracy, there is just a nasty disease, human nature and the constant clamouring cry of: ' what's in it for me ?'

     Well said, c_a.  The vast majority of the time this holds true.  There are some selfless people out there who genuinely care about the welfare of others but they are the exception.  So far four and a half million people have died from Covid.  When compared to the total world population this is a small number and would seem inconsequential.  Unless you or a loved one was one of the four and a half million.
     The last time we were completely free was when we were hunter/gatherers.  Once we settled into agrarian communities we had to give up some of our freedom. Laws are necessary to prevent chaos. FREEDOM IS A RELATIVE TERM. 
    No one has the right to spread disease.

As we mentioned in the last thread C_A, power is its own end. Having to have papers (or the proper app) in order to leave your house wasn't in the cards in western civ pre-covid. Sure most people took their phones, and govs admittedly tracked them, but there's still a difference. A big one.

@morphy
That's a damn good question. "When legitimate means fail to achieve redress". Is one answer, but one I fear is too simplistic. We will endure much tyranny to keep our families safe. The herd can endure much. But there's a point where the herd snaps. The French are my go to example here. The terror wasn't an improvement over the aristocracy but the herd hit the point where they were willing to roll the dice.

When ~90% vaccination plus a papers citizen app to leave your house isn't enough (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-58245285) and we start admitting that the vaccine's effectivity isn't almost 100 but rather almost 60 percent (https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/british-study-shows-...) the narrative of "if everybody just obeyed we'd be back to normal" starts falling apart. Especially when people say things like
Quote:

Actually virtually all very powerful organizations pay big money to know as much about you and everyone else as possible. From coorporations to political parties to intelligence agencies and social media. This isnt even an open secret. Its openly admitted.

@Perpetual_Student- Thats a good theoretical point. I do like the succinctness of that definition. But I also feel like, as you implied, the vast majority of the people would always say "well its just a little more freedom lost" "its for the greater good."  Maybe the answer is there is no good answer which is why we seem destined to relive this particular cycle over and over till the end of time.

Curious Aardvark, I agree that we’re largely creatures that look out for ourselves. However, I believe there is a part of us that is selfless. Maybe it’s just disguised selfishness to shape the world into one that is safer for us. Either way, I think we need to lean into that.

Sarosh wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 9:17am:


You should try moving to most of the developed world. At least in the United States, I can say anything I damn well please. No opinion is illegal. Just don’t threaten people bodily harm.

Wanting to go where you want? Sure, but that’s trickier. Should you be able to break into your neighbor’s house, or even any stranger’s, any time you want? I wouldn’t like a place like that. In your case, you have the fires. If they let people out and about in those areas, couldn’t people accidentally start fires that endanger others? Couldn’t you end up in danger, with rescuers obligated to risk their life to save you? From what you’ve told me, those restrictions aren’t unreasonable. But I’m probably just a mindless sheep who believes in protecting  the property and lives of others.

Do any of you even realize that there really is no pandemic? You guys do not know what a pandemic is. The Black Plague was a pandemic with a 99% death rate, people dead all over the place. It also spread faster than wildfire. Now fast forward to the present. We have this sickness COVID-19 (a slightly stronger common cold with a fancy name) and people are being forced to wear a mask and take vaccines (in some countries) for a sickness that has a 99% recovery rate and the people on the news say it spreads fast but if it did everyone should have had it by now. Also I thought that we have the right to chose if we want some foreign matter pumped into our bloodstream or not. Also you say that the government is doing it for health and safety but if that were true why don’t they ban cigarettes and alcohol?

Quote:


Firstly, as Joe_meadmaker said, pandemics aren’t defined by mortality. It’s just a globally occurring outbreak of a disease.

Second, the Black Plague probably didn’t have a 99% mortality. A very high mortality (maybe 50 - 70%), but there were survivors. During the plague of Justinian (the same disease), the emperor caught it but survived. Survivors were terribly scarred.

Third, Covid isn’t a “slightly stronger common cold with a fancy name”, it’s a new and very different disease that easily has 10 times the mortality rate, and can seriously mess some people up.

Finally, the government (US government, sorry everyone else) actually has tried banning both those things. Cigarettes are being legally pushed out of most areas and are increasingly taxed. As for alcohol, there was this little era called prohibition when a ban on alcohol was added to the constitution. If you’re American, you might have heard of it.  The government didn’t have the power to stop people from violating that law, and popular support that had brought that amendment into being soon forced it out. It was a failure. Just like with Covid, the government isn’t an all powerful entity that can do stuff like that on a whim. It’s an organization subject to the sentiment of the people, even when it doesn’t feel like it.

So Any country that values freedom over safety?