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Any country that values freedom over safety? (Read 3710 times)
IronGoober
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #90 - Oct 8th, 2021 at 10:05pm
 
perpetualstudent wrote on Oct 8th, 2021 at 9:43am:
The reason it trigger's morphy and my skepticism is because that's too pretty (99%), especially when about half the people hospitalized in the UK were fully vaccinated. Given that, it smells like propaganda.

Morphy wrote on Oct 8th, 2021 at 6:48pm:
Explain how any country can have the majority of its seriously ill patients as vaccinated


Curious...where is the data showing that half/most of the hospitalized patients are/were vaccinated? that is directly contrary to anything I've seen or heard.
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #91 - Oct 9th, 2021 at 12:42am
 
@ratman: that makes no sense at all. So if someone is going around raping and murdering other people you would say, “well I wouldn’t do that but I’m not going to stop them because I shouldn’t tell them what to do” after they rape and murder your friends and family. It doesn’t matter how a person kills someone else whether it be in the womb or not, babies are still human beings inside their mothers womb. Just go back 200 years when there still was slavery in the U.S. they made the same argument. They said “well slavery is ok cause black people aren’t fully human.” Which isn’t true. Even putting their baby up for adoption is far better then murdering it because they are selfish and irresponsible. You also were saying something about if a woman is raped and there is a baby, well two wrongs don’t make a right, they can always give the baby up for adoption.
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J
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #92 - Oct 9th, 2021 at 7:37am
 
Antibody Dependent Enhancement. Vaccination can achieve the opposite effect. Instead of immunity, it increases infection rate and disease when the individual gets reinfected. It has happened in the past with vaccins for Sars / Mers.
it's a serious risk. If this vaccine backfires because it was rushed (on purpose?) it has a serious chance of killing halve the worlds population. The vast amount of women with menstrual problems as a result of it also make me think this is about destroying fertility. The Green pass is about control and indirectly forcing people to the shot. It's not temporary. The crisis that would come as a result of this would also enable a new financial system. The elites of this world make no secret of their desire for 90% population reduction. It is written in stone. Georgia guidestones.  I am really dissaponted by how many on this site so readily took it.
I won't volunteer.
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« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2021 at 10:44am by J »  
 
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #93 - Oct 9th, 2021 at 8:49am
 
Iron Goober here's the AP rundown on it
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-492214263305

The UK science chief initially misspoke and called it 60-40 when it was 40-60, either way, it's about half.

The data I've seen from the US is we have a higher % of unvaccinated people in the hospitals but the UK experience (and the Israeli experience) trigger a good deal of skepticism. It wasn't that long after the UK experience that the language started shifting to "protects against hospitalization and death" Bear in mind though that the raw fatality rate is already less than 1% and a huge majority (97% last time I crunched the data from the CDC) were over 65. This virus REALLY takes the older set. What about the 3%? I do want some good research into that. Some is obvious comorbidity or obesity, but my brother who is a nurse has talked about some 40 year old body builders he's cared for in the ICU who didn't make it. What is it that makes you vulnerable to COVID is the question. Thank God, it's not kids.
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Morphy
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #94 - Oct 9th, 2021 at 9:40am
 
perpetualstudent wrote on Oct 9th, 2021 at 8:49am:
Iron Goober here's the AP rundown on it
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-492214263305

The UK science chief initially misspoke and called it 60-40 when it was 40-60, either way, it's about half.

The data I've seen from the US is we have a higher % of unvaccinated people in the hospitals but the UK experience (and the Israeli experience) trigger a good deal of skepticism. It wasn't that long after the UK experience that the language started shifting to "protects against hospitalization and death" Bear in mind though that the raw fatality rate is already less than 1% and a huge majority (97% last time I crunched the data from the CDC) were over 65. This virus REALLY takes the older set. What about the 3%? I do want some good research into that. Some is obvious comorbidity or obesity, but my brother who is a nurse has talked about some 40 year old body builders he's cared for in the ICU who didn't make it. What is it that makes you vulnerable to COVID is the question. Thank God, it's not kids.



Do we know if he lowered the percentage because someone reminded him that only 2 vaxes are considered vaccinated? If they are doing their math like that it would be taking cases away from the vaxed side and adding them to the unvaxed which would obviously drastically change the percentages. Anyways just curious.

IG you can google Israel as well. Its all there.

Thing is it shouldnt happen even once. It shouldnt be possible at 99% effectiveness. Clearly no one told the virus.
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"I think this guy is the king of trolls of the forum, he waited 16 years just to say this. please pay your respects in an orderly fashion."-Sarosh
 
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J
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #95 - Oct 9th, 2021 at 10:42am
 
I believe in Israel 2 jabs no longer count as vaccinated. You have to get 3, and they are already talking about a 4th and 5th and so on. Easy way for them to say the unvaxxed are filling the hospitals that way when the unvaxxed are actually double jabbed.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-israel-being-fully-vaccinated-now-means-three-sh...
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Morphy
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #96 - Oct 9th, 2021 at 12:21pm
 
J wrote on Oct 9th, 2021 at 10:42am:
I believe in Israel 2 jabs no longer count as vaccinated. You have to get 3, and they are already talking about a 4th and 5th and so on. Easy way for them to say the unvaxxed are filling the hospitals that way when the unvaxxed are actually double jabbed.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-israel-being-fully-vaccinated-now-means-three-sh...


Yep. Very convenient. If you keep changing the definition of vaxed to mean someone who has all the vaccines that are recommended and change the definition of unvaxed to anything except the maximum you can constantly keep pushing the numbers of unvaxed hospitalizations up and the vaxed down. That’s some slick bean counting.
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #97 - Oct 9th, 2021 at 3:32pm
 
Lightning Jack wrote on Oct 9th, 2021 at 12:42am:
@ratman: that makes no sense at all. So if someone is going around raping and murdering other people you would say, “well I wouldn’t do that but I’m not going to stop them because I shouldn’t tell them what to do” after they rape and murder your friends and family. It doesn’t matter how a person kills someone else whether it be in the womb or not, babies are still human beings inside their mothers womb. Just go back 200 years when there still was slavery in the U.S. they made the same argument. They said “well slavery is ok cause black people aren’t fully human.” Which isn’t true. Even putting their baby up for adoption is far better then murdering it because they are selfish and irresponsible. You also were saying something about if a woman is raped and there is a baby, well two wrongs don’t make a right, they can always give the baby up for adoption.


     It makes no sense to you. To most of the rest of the world it makes perfect sense.  Abortion isn't rape or murder.  It's getting rid of an unwanted pregnancy.  An undeveloped fetus is not a sentient human being. 
     Though we disagree totally on this and most likely always will, I can appreciate your point of view until your last statement.  The notion that a woman who has been raped should have the rapist's baby then give it up for adoption is beyond ludicrous.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #98 - Oct 9th, 2021 at 4:48pm
 
You have to be very careful in making additions like "sentient" to get out of "human being". My recently departed Grandfather was not sentient for probably the last 5 years of his life. Nor is "sentience" necessarily there for a newborn.

The divide on this issue is large for a very good reason and invokes deeply felt convictions of conscience, treating it as fete accompli for either side invokes strife at best and violence at worst. Perhaps best to steer clear.
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #99 - Oct 9th, 2021 at 6:53pm
 
@ratman: there is no such thing as an unwanted pregnancy it’s called the people having the baby don’t want to be responsible for their actions. If a woman doesn’t want to be pregnant then don’t get pregnant in the first place it’s that simple. But that’s what happens when the public schools take God out of the picture and replace God with the theory of evolution (which is actually a hypothesis by the way). The result is a bunch of selfish, ungrateful, and irresponsible adults.
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IronGoober
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #100 - Oct 9th, 2021 at 10:49pm
 
Morphy wrote on Oct 9th, 2021 at 9:40am:
Thing is it shouldnt happen even once. It shouldnt be possible at 99% effectiveness. Clearly no one told the virus.


Studies on the delta variant do not show 99% effectiveness, even in the original strain the numbers were 94 and 95 % for Moderna and Pfizer, respectively. It's much lower, (somewhere around 65% for preventing infection) as they weren't developed for the delta variant.  In my mind, the hospitalization numbers aren't surprising at all. The available vaccinations offer protection, more than none at all, and more than natural immunity, but not 99% protection against infection. Natural immunity has been shown to be less effective than vaccination according to the CDC, and yes, the CDC has had a number of missteps in their handling of this pandemic, but they are still my most trusted source for information.
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #101 - Oct 10th, 2021 at 5:00am
 
I'd agree with you and say they are the most trusted, but not the most trustworthy.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #102 - Oct 10th, 2021 at 9:05am
 
Curious IG, where are you pulling Natural Immunity less than vaccination? Last I saw the official line was "natural immunity + vaccination" offered the best resistance and natural immunity better than vaccination (which is normative for disease in general). Some countries, notably Switzerland, accept recovery from covid as being as good as a vaccine.



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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #103 - Oct 10th, 2021 at 9:09am
 
Lightning Jack wrote on Oct 9th, 2021 at 6:53pm:
@ratman: there is no such thing as an unwanted pregnancy it’s called the people having the baby don’t want to be responsible for their actions. If a woman doesn’t want to be pregnant then don’t get pregnant in the first place it’s that simple. But that’s what happens when the public schools take God out of the picture and replace God with the theory of evolution (which is actually a hypothesis by the way). The result is a bunch of selfish, ungrateful, and irresponsible adults.


     Accidents happen, birth controls fail, rapes occur,  etc., etc.  Though I agree that many times irresponsible actions are the cause, accidental, unwanted pregnancies do occur through no fault of the participants. Living in your own fantasy world because it suits your agenda doesn't change reality. 
     You seem to want to really cover the whole gamut in one thread.  Sooo, as far as God in our public schools, that violates our constitution. Did you ever read our constitution?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/separation_of_church_and_state#:~:text=Separatio....
   Which God do you want to put in our public schools?  Zoroaster? Zeus?  Buda? Allah?  Odin? Thor?   You probably mean your Christian god.  Thankfully our constitution prevents zealots and other weirdos from inflicting their superstitions and religious hypocrisies  on our school children.  There are Catholic, Christian, Jewish, etc. schools for those who wish for their children to have a religious education.  In schools paid for with my hefty taxes no god has any place.
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IronGoober
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Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Reply #104 - Oct 10th, 2021 at 11:43am
 
I realize studies are not the most definitive source for information but here is the CDC site. [url]. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html [/url]

This was back in August. As of today, I just read a synopsis of another study that points at natural immunity being more effective than vaccination in terms of the white blood cell response (vaccinations were found to produce more antibodies in this study). But, With everything in flux in terms of virus mutations and waning immunity, it seems to me like even if natural immunity is better, being vaccinated will help reduce transmission. And that's what this (viral) war is all about, reducing transmission so the virus has fewer chances to mutate and spread.

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