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I can no longer ignore Y-slings (Read 2587 times)
AncientCraftwork
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I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Aug 16th, 2021 at 4:47am
 
Every pendelum-swing has vectors in all directions and we have to release at exactly the right vector that is in line with our target.† Due to release delay, the vector that is inline with our target is no longer the vector that we have to release at. We have to release a few vectors before that, in order to compensate. And with this compensation we hope to hit the right vector that is inline with our target. The problem comes with this compensation. We can train ourselves to compensate very consistently. But now factor in differences in sling projectile shapes and even sling constructions.

These again differ the way we must compensate. This release compensation makes the regular sling we are used to a tricky thing. A much simpler sort of sling would be one without release compensation. One that allows us to release on the same vector that is in line with our target, or at least as close to it as possible. The closer the vector we release at is to the vector that is inline with the target, the more intuitive a sling becomes in my view. A bola perdida is a sling that releases exactly inline with the vector. It makes accuracy at 10 meters super easy. The Y-sling comes close to it. But it also has a slight release delay, but only slight. This delay is a necessary evil, again, not to get rifle spin this time, but to get retention on the projectile during the swing. We can't sacrifice every bit of pouch security in order to get even less release delay. The pouch is there for a reason. To retain.

I am going to the sling cage soon and try out a new Y-sling I am constructing, with rubber baseballs
captive release as well. I don't see any reason for a fly out release cord on them.
I have noticed reduced range with Y-slings due to lack of bullet spin. I think the range tops out at about 150 meters with the Y-sling, 150 grams projectile weight and an average slinger.

Switching back and forth between this type sling and friction sling really makes you see how much delay in the release there is with the latter. This delay is a necessary evil to get spiral spin, which , just makes small ovoid sling stones disappear in the horizon with the rifling-sling.

I think I have to come to terms with the fact that both sling types are really unique and useful for their respective domains.† The Incas never stopped using bolas just because they also had† slings.† The Y-sling can definitely replace the bola perdida. Make it captive release and you got very unique type of hunting tool, one that is very silent as well. Even the projectile, due to the lack of hard spin flies silently. The captive release makes it more useful in areas with a lot of growth. The animal would never hear the stone coming.† The possibilities it gives for hunting are great. I can no longer ignore it.

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Mersa
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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #1 - Aug 16th, 2021 at 5:25am
 
Iím gonna build myself a y-sling. Iím yet to really experiment with them, they definitely have some attributes that seem appealing. Not sure theyíre a better design but something worth playing with
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #2 - Aug 16th, 2021 at 10:44am
 
J you should consider revisiting the asymmetric sling I sent you. Itís a compromise design that tries to balance fast release, good retention, and insensitivity to ammo size/shape. It would also be pretty easy to put stiffer cords on it if you donít like the thin ones it came with.
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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AncientCraftwork
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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #3 - Aug 16th, 2021 at 12:06pm
 
Pouch designs for regular slings would be a subject for a different thread I suppose.
That being said I've tried many shapes and sizes, asymmetric and symmetric. They all work more or less the same. Cant'say I favour the assymetric pouch. I prefer the simple aussie pouch for cupped and the simple oval leather pouch for flat with 2.5~mm leather, with a firm and tight cord-loop attachment to the pouch. Preferred cords have become ~4mm 4 strand round braid sisal.

An assymetric pouch would only serve its purpose if one halve of the projectile sits in the cupped side, and the other halve on the flat side. But if the† projectile just sits in or on the cupped side completely, function wise it's just a regular cupped pouch and no different in practice than an Aussie pouch really
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Morphy
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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #4 - Aug 16th, 2021 at 1:30pm
 
So are you looking into this again mainly for accuracy?
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #5 - Aug 16th, 2021 at 4:29pm
 
AncientCraftwork wrote on Aug 16th, 2021 at 12:06pm:
An assymetric pouch would only serve its purpose if one halve of the projectile sits in the cupped side, and the other halve on the flat side.


Yes.Thatís exactly the point of an asymmetric pouch. It releases faster because the flat side moves out of the way more easily than a cupped pouch, but the cupped retention side holds ammo better during windup. Itís not as fast as a Y sling, but itís also not as picky about ammo.
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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AncientCraftwork
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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #6 - Aug 18th, 2021 at 7:43am
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Aug 16th, 2021 at 4:29pm:
AncientCraftwork wrote on Aug 16th, 2021 at 12:06pm:
An assymetric pouch would only serve its purpose if one halve of the projectile sits in the cupped side, and the other halve on the flat side.


Yes.Thatís exactly the point of an asymmetric pouch. It releases faster because the flat side moves out of the way more easily than a cupped pouch, but the cupped retention side holds ammo better during windup. Itís not as fast as a Y sling, but itís also not as picky about ammo.



I swapped† to Thomas/Jax his T-pouch design for Y-slings. It's not picky about ammo. Much better than some of the minimal Y-pouches I made in the past. This was a mistake I made- I focused on eliminating all friction, to the point that my pouches were no logner secure.† A sling pouch cannot serve his purpose if it does not retain the projectile. Especially during the powerstroke.
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« Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2021 at 8:59am by AncientCraftwork »  

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AncientCraftwork
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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #7 - Aug 18th, 2021 at 7:49am
 
Morphy wrote on Aug 16th, 2021 at 1:30pm:
So are you looking into this again mainly for accuracy?


For short distances yes. I have gotten used to the feel of captive release. The no ''tug'' feeling. I enjoy using this sling a lot.
it's very simple in operation, not having to think about pouch orientation and all. It's like slinging a stone with a cord tied to it. But the benefit being that upon release there is no trailing cord. The release is very direct.

Don't get me wrong, oval projectiles slung by a ''rifle sling'' or conventional sling, with the right pouch orientation, result in much lower drag coefficient and thus a higher perceivable speed and less speed-drop over distance. This is a serious edge of the conventional sling over the y-sling.† But likewise this release compensation with a ''rifle-sling'' is what makes accuracy, especially with random ammo, a never ending battle.

One thing that drew me back is the captive release. I am seriously falling in love with it. It makes longer slings much more practical. It just took some time to get used to and an open mind.
Captive release can also be used on conventional slings, but if the orientation is not right it can lead to very dangerous situations, with the ammo not releasing but getting hooked by the release cord and then flying exactly 120 degrees the other way I was aiming† Grin I've had this happen and missed a neighbours window by a few cm, I concluded captive release is not fit for conventional slings.
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« Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2021 at 9:08am by AncientCraftwork »  

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Morphy
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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #8 - Aug 18th, 2021 at 11:39am
 
So correct me if im wrong here J but does a captive release, release the projectile with the sling cords in line with the target? As opposed to being perpendicular to it? Ive always kind of avoided looking into this design because it seems so different than the normal design I would be afraid of switching back and forth and making accuracy with my normal sling even harder to maintain. As always when speaking of slings is more "accuracy" than accuracy but you get what im saying.  Wink
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AncientCraftwork
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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #9 - Aug 18th, 2021 at 11:54am
 
I would say that the Y-sling is indeed the ideal sling for in-line type of throws, hence the best projectile for it is the spherical

Doesn't mean that you can't spiral ovals with it because if you use a Y-sling in a certain way you can do it, sort of, but I don't think it's the ideal sling for it.† But anyone who further develops this or can do it effectively has my praise

Similarily throwing in-line with a regular sling is possible with the right conditions, but it's not really suited for it.
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AncientCraftwork
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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #10 - Aug 18th, 2021 at 12:06pm
 
Morphy, I don't think using this sling is going to effect using the other type negatively perse. it's just a matter of dialing in more release compensation when you swap back to the normal sling. Just like if you were to swap to a lighter or heavier than usual stone with your regular sling, you'd have to redial your release compensation.† So if you got no quails about using different sizes of ammo in regular slings, or different regular slings for that matter, then using the Y-sling for a while isn't going to have any different effect.
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« Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2021 at 1:32pm by AncientCraftwork »  

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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #11 - Aug 18th, 2021 at 12:44pm
 
All good points man. I guess I should take a look at it. It would be interesting to do several target sessions with each and see if there is a big accuracy distance for me.
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AncientCraftwork
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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #12 - Aug 18th, 2021 at 1:40pm
 
One thing I have noticed immediately is that the difference in release compensation in a Y-sling between variable ammo weights is much smaller than this difference in a normal sling.

In other words, the different release compensation between light and heavy stones is smaller in a Y-sling than the difference in release compensation when swapping between light and heavy stones in a regular sling.

With the regular sling it takes a few adjustment shots, at least for me, when I swap from light to heavy stones. With the Y-sling this adjustment is still there but it's much smaller to barely feeling like I have to adjust my release compensation between light and heavy at all, if that makes sense. Because there's barely any release compensation going on with this sling type in the first place. This helps with inconsistent ammo.


edit: changed ''release timing'' to ''release compensation'' because the latter is a better description of what I meant
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IronGoober
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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #13 - Aug 18th, 2021 at 7:19pm
 
Now, that is an interesting observation. I'll have to go try this and see if I notice the same.
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AncientCraftwork
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Re: I can no longer ignore Y-slings
Reply #14 - Aug 19th, 2021 at 12:19pm
 
@NOOC. Y-sling pouches are actually ideal for halve cupped, halve flat pouches.
I noticed that on Jax & Thomas his designs, that the single leg of the "T'' pouch shape, can be made up of multiple legs, overlapped together to form a cup, or more simply as I did, fold them together to make it cupped.
This way halve of the ball is in the folded section and the other side in the flat section.
Works superbly for retention and has no ill effects on release because it's released in-line the other way of the cupped part.

This pouch is made of an odd material,† old East German communist fabric that has some sort of polymerized waterproof layer on the back, tough stuff, very light and no stretch which I like.
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« Last Edit: Aug 19th, 2021 at 1:35pm by AncientCraftwork »  


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