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Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging) (Read 356 times)
Kick
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Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
May 10th, 2021 at 5:16am
 
Wait wait! I know I posted this in the General Slinging Discussion not Other Weapons, but there is a reason! Skallagrim recently did a really great video on accuracy with handguns and I really feel what he's saying has a lot of relevance to slings. The way I see it, by far the most important aspect of accuracy with a sling is the release point. The point the stone is released dictates it's trajectory in the same way the line on which the barrel of a handgun is pointing dictates where the bullet is going to go. All of the tiny movements that can affect a gunshot, as shown in the video, really show why the sling can be so flipping difficult. Even a tiny delay or a minutely early release can have a huge effect on the path of the stone. It's something to keep in mind when slinging.

https://youtu.be/ItDlFs5cvxc
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You are a great guy Kick but also slightly scary at times. - Morphy
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #1 - May 10th, 2021 at 9:37am
 
Hey... that’s not about slinging at all!  You must be some sort of doomsday prepping right wing gun nut Kick!

Ok, I’ll stop Grin

This is clearly about the biomechanics of slinging, which often gets ignored  Smiley

Hollywood does make handgun accuracy seem much easier than it is, and that’s largely static whereas the sling is dynamic. A handgun is challenging to shoot accurately without practice because of all the little sources of error. It’s much easier to have a small error in timing, and timing is everything with a sling. That’s why heavy ammo is preferred by so many slingers... it’s still effective at slower speeds, and small timing errors are less significant if the sling is rotating slower.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #2 - May 10th, 2021 at 9:49am
 
We used to have members who would try to use math based on known human reflex speeds to show that fine tuning accuracy with a sling is not possible. Although we know that to be false, especially these days, I think the reasoning for believing it is understandable. Its a damn hard weapon.

I am convinced we still arent even close to the slings max accuracy. Just a feeling. But ya...

Good points guys.
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #3 - May 10th, 2021 at 11:29am
 
Morphy wrote on May 10th, 2021 at 9:49am:
We used to have members who would try to use math based on known human reflex speeds to show that fine tuning accuracy with a sling is not possible. Although we know that to be false, especially these days, I think the reasoning for believing it is understandable. Its a damn hard weapon.


Yes, this is a misuse of reaction speed. There is very little or even zero feedback loop in a slinging action, you just make the movements you feel are appropriate and see what happens for the most part.
You can act out predetermined motions and actions with far greater precision in time than you can process new information and respond by changing actions. In short, you should not use reaction speed to argue for something where there isn't a reaction present.
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #4 - May 10th, 2021 at 12:37pm
 
Zero feedback loop. That is a brilliant way to describe it Judo. If I shoot point on with a bow and my arrows consistently hit to one side or the other I can easily just change spine or even move the point of aim over to compensate.

With a sling you cant do that. Not only is it a true instinctive weapon in that the thing being aimed cant be used as a point of aim its also moving at high speeds. It makes feedback very difficult to impossible.

I feel there are some things that can be done to make aiming and consistency easier. I call them anchor points since I shamelessly rip off terms from Archery but they do help.
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #5 - May 10th, 2021 at 12:53pm
 
you aim a gun.
You can't aim a sling.

It's pretty much the only projectile firing weapon that you can't aim.

As it happens we DO have a forum pistol shooting expert, competition winner and professional instructor: slingbasket.

Be interesting to get his pennyworth on any similarities or otherwise between slinging and shooting.

I don't see any myself.
Two very different ways of tuning your body and mind to do a task.
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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
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Kick
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #6 - May 10th, 2021 at 1:16pm
 
It's obviously far from one to one but the idea that a sling will release in a straight line (if there isn't a spin put on the projectile) is the same as a with a gun and with all projectiles. It helps explain for a beginner how release points work in that consistency is so important because even a very small change in release has an exponentially larger impact on the path the projectile travels.
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You are a great guy Kick but also slightly scary at times. - Morphy
"Nothing matters, but it’s perhaps more comfortable to keep calm and not interfere with other people." - H.P. Lovecraft, in a letter to Frank Belknap Long, 7 October, 1923
 
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #7 - May 11th, 2021 at 7:16pm
 
Morphy wrote on May 10th, 2021 at 9:49am:
We used to have members who would try to use math based on known human reflex speeds to show that fine tuning accuracy with a sling is not possible. Although we know that to be false, especially these days, I think the reasoning for believing it is understandable. Its a damn hard weapon.

I am convinced we still arent even close to the slings max accuracy. Just a feeling. But ya...

Good points guys.


Why do we have so many enemies? Why should someone care enough to do that?
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No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training…what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Socrates
 
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #8 - May 11th, 2021 at 7:38pm
 
SerKraus wrote on May 11th, 2021 at 7:16pm:
Morphy wrote on May 10th, 2021 at 9:49am:
We used to have members who would try to use math based on known human reflex speeds to show that fine tuning accuracy with a sling is not possible. Although we know that to be false, especially these days, I think the reasoning for believing it is understandable. Its a damn hard weapon.

I am convinced we still arent even close to the slings max accuracy. Just a feeling. But ya...

Good points guys.


Why do we have so many enemies? Why should someone care enough to do that?


Wait what? I am confused. More confused and less horrified than the conversation I was having immediately before this about chicken saddles and duck penises so thats a plus.

Help a brother out, what enemies?
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #9 - May 11th, 2021 at 8:24pm
 
Like, why do we have "haters". There's always people out there misrepresenting the sling and making completely false assertions which I would say is out of ignorance for the most part. However, making calculations to somehow prove the sling is an inaccurate weapon is pretty odd.
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #10 - May 11th, 2021 at 8:32pm
 
SerKraus wrote on May 11th, 2021 at 8:24pm:
Like, why do we have "haters". There's always people out there misrepresenting the sling and making completely false assertions which I would say is out of ignorance for the most part. However, making calculations to somehow prove the sling is an inaccurate weapon is pretty odd.


Yes, yes it is. And even more so because this was being done by avid slingers themselves!

I really believe the motivation at least for a few of them was because they never achieved any degree of accuracy and instead of accepting they needed to make a big change they simply took the easy way out and said the sling was only meant as a volley weapon against large masses of troops.

This wasnt even that long ago either SerKraus. Look at the accuracy videos we have available to us now. There is no doubt it can be accurate.
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #11 - May 11th, 2021 at 10:39pm
 
Saying that the sling was meant for volleys in war is like saying that cars are meant for racing.
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #12 - May 12th, 2021 at 6:29am
 
I doubt such an analysis was done as an attack. People simply don't know what they don't know and it's easy to convince yourself you made a breakthrough because you used maths and maths is concrete/reliable/precise etc.
In reality such estimates are only as good as their foundational assumptions and the problem set up. If your assumptions are bad then any mathematics attached to them are irrelevant, as it is solving an imagined problem not the actual real case.
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #13 - May 12th, 2021 at 8:32am
 
JudoP wrote on May 12th, 2021 at 6:29am:
I doubt such an analysis was done as an attack. People simply don't know what they don't know and it's easy to convince yourself you made a breakthrough because you used maths and maths is concrete/reliable/precise etc.
In reality such estimates are only as good as their foundational assumptions and the problem set up. If your assumptions are bad then any mathematics attached to them are irrelevant, as it is solving an imagined problem not the actual real case.


I wish I could make this another quote lol. Ive seen some of the most educated people that have graced this forum fall prey to this issue. 

Math is not a shortcut to answers. All it does is translate your understanding of whats going on into numbers. If your understanding is wrong to begin with so is the math. Math cant save you heathens only sound understanding can do that!!  Grin
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Re: Accuracy with Handguns (I swear it's about slinging)
Reply #14 - May 12th, 2021 at 10:39pm
 
When slinging meets shooting.  Cheesy

...

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