Morphy wrote on May 6
th, 2021 at 4:44pm:
AncientCraftwork wrote on May 6
th, 2021 at 11:25am:
The problem with the wide grip, is that while it is genuinely utilized to overcome issues of radial oscillations, which come as a result of a sling cord that is too floppy in respect to the projectile, the wide grip introduces a new problem, longitudinal oscillations !. Longitudinal oscillations are the movements up and down of the sling cords, that happen with a wide grip, during the twirly phase, and can produce premature projectile dropping out of the pouch.
I applaud your desire to understand the sling better. I’ve been doing this for awhile as well and I feel like it’s a constant battle of 2 steps forward and 1 step back as far as theory goes. Sometimes it’s vice versa but that’s the nature of the beast.
So that being said let me ask you some questions and maybe we can take another step forward together.
1st, how sure are you that a wide grip causes premature release/dropping? If the premise of this theory is largely based on this motivating factor it would seem prudent to make sure that this theory is true. Otherwise you will be trying to fix a problem which either doesnt exist or exists for a reason other than that which you’ve theorized. What evidence can you offer that this is the case? If it is the case, is it so for everyone and if it isn’t so for everyone; why is that?
2nd, If it’s not universal then is it possible that this is more to do with something in your throw rather than something caused by all wide grip releases?
I ask these questions because for myself personally I’ve never had a premature release with a paracord apache sling where the ammo was the correct size for the sling. If I have it’s so rare that I cannot remember the last time that’s happened.
I’m initially focusing on this one question because before we get lost in the weeds here on all the things you mentioned let’s look at the premise that precedes all the other theories.
The other question I have for you is, what is the main goal you are looking for in this theory? Greater distance? Accuracy? Safety?
If it’s accuracy you should post some data on the Max Accuracy thread because that thread is there to answer these types of questions.
So right now Mersa has pretty much blasted everyone else’s score out of the water with a thin corded dyneema sling. Although I don’t know if he uses a wide or narrow grip and such scores can’t tell us as much detail as we would like, they certainly tell us whether something is possible or not. And right now he’s left us in the dust with his thin corded sling.
On the other hand... Probably one of my favorite slings I’ve ever used has been IG’s balearic and it has many of the qualities you are talking about. I can’t be sure right now without a whole lot more testing that it’s any “more” accurate but it certainly didn’t seem any “less” accurate than the best slings I’ve tried. I’m definitely open to the idea that lateral oscillations maybe cause release problems but again, I have zero real evidence on that. So far anyways.
Ok, well those are my thoughts. Good post man, as always!
I called this post of mine a rant because it sort of is, just me ranting away some thoughts, although not meant in an angerly fashion.
A wide grip does not
have to cause a premature release or drop. But the overall chance for such a thing to happen is higher. Simply due to the fact that there are now longitudinal oscillations introduced. I do think this is universal. Our bodies cannot rotate our wrists in such a fashion to completely alliviate this oscillation on the cords and pouch with a wide grip. This is only cancelled out when the pivot point for both cords is more or less the same place in the hand. They are virtually nonexistent when the cords are grapped side by side or on top of each other. The result in my experience? This does increase safety a lot.
What I mean by longitudinal oscillation. Place a stone in your sling and hold your sling pouch and stone up in the air
with your left hand. Grip the sling with a wide grip with your right hand, with for example the loop around the ring finger.
Now move your left hand that is holding the stone in the pouch up and down. Note how the axis of the projectile
does not sit static with the pouch but moves slightly. This movement happens every time we rotate our wrist
with a wide grip and is the prime cause of premature release when it does happen.
Now use a tight no gap right in your right hand and perform the same test. See how the projectile stays taut in the pouch while you move the left hand up and down. There is no real movement. draw an imaginary line from the center of the stone
to the center of your hand. This line stays the same throughout rotation of a sling with a narrow grip. But with a wide grip,
this imaginary line moves off center back and fro every rotation, hence the oscillation.
When I give a sling to a new beginner and see them try out the wide grip, it almost always leads to a premature release.
Because they don't know to rotate the wrist at all. On the other hand, the tight grip does not lead to a premature release.
For them it feels more natural and instinctual to hold a sling like this. Many slingers do start out with this grip naturally, given a sling and having to figure it out how to use it on their own.
But later as they get more advanced they swap to a wide grip because it feels more accurate or consistent.
That's logical. Considering that when they did start with the narrow grip, they probably used a very simple beginners sling that was too floppy to achieve consistent pouch orientation with a narrow grip. So naturally a wide grip with the same floppy sling feels more accurate or consistent. But a better solution would have been to stay with that natural instinctual tight grip, and instead improve their sling to handle oscillations better. That's what I believe anyway. My experimentation showed
that achieving this is not far fetched. That is, rifled shots and good pouch control with a no gap grip. It's easy, as long
as the setup is balanced. And it feels damn good
@Duckhands both look like very nice slings.