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Sling technicalities rant (Read 1295 times)
J
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #15 - May 8th, 2021 at 5:05am
 
I've got video's planned, but the future is always uncertain, a write up is what I can do at the moment.
But yes, I got video's I want to make.
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Morphy
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #16 - May 8th, 2021 at 9:28am
 
The reasons why videos are important is because we could literally spend 15 years throwing theories out with no progress (and boy have we lol!) but a series of, or even to start with, just one video showing 10 shots in a row, unedited, goes a long way to demonstrating the effectiveness of the theories involved.

I think it should be restated that many styles can work. All you need are certain principles. A means to maintain consistency, the ability to fine tune control and a few other things are the only prerequisites for someone to be accurate.

So no one is necessarily discounting the possibilities of what you are saying but like I said, showing that you can achieve that with what you are saying by posting a short video lets people know there is something worth looking into.

All of us only have a limited amount of time, so to show someone there time is well spent studying or thinking about what you are saying, videos are by far the best way to do that. I promise it would take less time to post a video than it would be to post multiple posts on a thread.

That being said, I love your theories. I think you may be on to something with the lateral oscillations and some other things you mentioned. So don’t take this the wrong way.
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"I think this guy is the king of trolls of the forum, he waited 16 years just to say this. please pay your respects in an orderly fashion."-Sarosh
 
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #17 - May 8th, 2021 at 1:10pm
 
It's hard to find a place to sling unbothered in a country with 550 people per square kilometer , especially in full historic dress. But I will make video's. It's just not easy here.
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #18 - May 9th, 2021 at 12:49pm
 
A slowmotion clip for study behavior of the sling. The release cord is gripped side by side of retention cord and upon release is in front of the retention cord, but the pouch angle automatically assumes the correct position for a rifled spin due to minimal oscillation, without requiring cord seperation. This is why I recommend minimal oscillation theory

https://youtu.be/cJV9WayajQk
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #19 - May 9th, 2021 at 2:49pm
 
Couple questions. And bear with me im trying to make this more clear and digestable for people just reading about your theory.

1st, When you say oscillation can you define that in a simple way anyone can understand? What type of oscillation is going on by throwing with a wide grip and what exactly is happening to the ammo amd sling during the shot in laymans terms when you are talking about oscillation that shouldnt be happening.

2nd, what problem do you propose that the above defined oscillation is causing that using a narrow grip like this becomes needed to fix?

3rd, Can you show us multiple, say around 10 shots, in a row showing us the problem exists with the wide grip and then show another 10 unedited shots in a row showing the problem being fixed with this narrow grip.

I think an issue Im having here is I dont know what problem exactly you are trying to fix so it doesnt strike me as necessary or at least it doesnt make a ton of sense to me.

On a tangent, I can see how stiffer cords would cause the sling not to twist laterally and have cord crossing as much as very limber cords. That theory at least makes sense. We
have virtually no proof just yet and what it fixes is a little up in the air but "that" at least is a potential problem we have all seen from time to time.

Whereas with this one I dont even see the problem because I havent experienced it.
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"I think this guy is the king of trolls of the forum, he waited 16 years just to say this. please pay your respects in an orderly fashion."-Sarosh
 
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #20 - May 9th, 2021 at 3:10pm
 
Many of these things become self evident to slingers,  like that a wide grip is less secure in general than a narrow grip. It's also very easy to test and perfectly logical to understand the reasoning behind it. 
I have read about these things since my entry on this site and I've never seen anyone disagree with it or make a case against it.
It's simple, when the cords are seperated in the hand, the sling is already partially opened, the wider the seperation, the greater the opening, the greater movements on the projectile in the pouch that can cause slippages. On the contrary, with a pinch grip the sling is fully closed. The projectile doesn't move around in the pouch. It literally takes 5 seconds for a slinger to test.
Place the loop on the pinkie for the widest seperation, and the projectile is least secure. We can naturally assume
that as the seperation gets less the projectile gets seated better, and try it out and see it in front of our eyes. Isn't that obvious?

I talk about two types of oscillation. One that happens when either the cord is too floppy for the projectile, or the projectile too heavy for the sling, and one type of oscillation that happens when a wide grip is utilized, which worsens as the grip gets wider.
The first type results in cord twist, which leads to erratic pouch angles, and thus erratic releases. The second type of oscillation comes as a result of trying to solve the former type, by widening the grip. This oscillation happens up and down, and causes the projectile to experience a rolling movement just slightly so in the pouch. I am not sure if this has an effect on release
accuracy, but it can lead to preponed release. A solution for this is stiffening up the pouch or making the pouch more cupped, or swapping to a style with less rotations, but all these are not really good solutions and bring their own downsides in my opinion. The better way to solve the first type of oscillation instead of widening the grip is to get the appropiate type of cord stiffness for the projectile or the appropiate weight and size of stone for your sling, and what is appropiate? When it doesn't oscilliate / twist back in forth  with a narrow grip too much. What is too much? That is personal. For me I don't like it more than 20 degrees.


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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #21 - May 9th, 2021 at 3:24pm
 
that's sounds technical but that's what this thread is
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #22 - May 12th, 2021 at 6:38am
 
Sarosh explains very well why we can't keep making our slings thinner and floppier and expect the same accuracy
https://youtu.be/EXb0plY4-jc
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #23 - May 12th, 2021 at 7:49am
 
Hmm something just occurred to me J. I wonder if the size of the ammo plays a part and not just the weight.

With my paracord slings using stones I feel like my accuracy was pretty good. But never really tried them with larger ammo. You know baseball size and the like. Over the next couple months Ill have to spend some time using paracord vs balearic slings and see if I can document a difference.
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #24 - May 12th, 2021 at 8:42am
 
Size, density, weight, all plays a part. The shape of the projectile as well. A sphere by its very nature produces the least oscillations, while the more elongated and longer the projectiel gets the more oscillations are introduced.
Higher density also produces less oscillations than a lower density projectile of the same weight. It all has to do with the way the mass is distributed and centered between the sling cords.  The more of it is in the middle and not outside the pouch the better.  It's why I like the fat clay glande a lot. One that is almost a sphere, but with points.
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #25 - May 14th, 2021 at 8:23am
 
J,
Please define “oscillations”. Oscillations of what? And oscillations with respect to what?
Do you mean rotation?  Vibration? With respect to what?  Is it ammo that’s oscillating? Or the sling cords?  Ammo rotates  back and forth with respect to the sling pouch, the sling cords, the slinger’s wrist, elbow, shoulder and hips. It also rotates relative to the earth, the moon, and the sun. You say “oscillation” as if everyone knows what you are talking about, but please dumb it down for me. What oscillations are you referring to?

Once you define oscillations, please also explain why these are so bad. You seem to want to eliminate these oscillations, so please explain why and how that affects the act of slinging.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #26 - May 14th, 2021 at 8:36am
 
I've already explained it, and I don't feel like repeating myself over and over, because I can't explain it differently than what I already have. And if you don't understand it, than I can't help it. Maybe one day I will find better wording, but currently I am at a loss for words for further explanation, because I feel like I've already said all I could to explain it.

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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #27 - May 14th, 2021 at 8:42am
 
You’ve certainly put down a lot of words J, but it’s all starting to look like nonsense at this point.  I can tell that you’re passionate about this, but I’m struggling to take you seriously. I’ve seen plenty of people sling with accuracy using thin, flexible cords. Why is your way better?

Saying “it reduces oscillations” doesn’t mean anything to me. You could just as easily say “because it maximizes moon units”. It just sounds silly and there’s no evidence to show that you’re right in any of the things you’re claiming.

I’m still waiting for that video too. You talk about this a lot, but where’s the demonstration? When are you going to back up all these claims you are making?
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #28 - May 14th, 2021 at 9:25am
 
So I think the main issue I have is if a person says something cant be done or cant be done well and then even one other person does it, it sort of destroys the whole theory.

Its like saying only one throwing style is capable of high accuracy. Well, thats a problem because now every single person who is halfway decent that uses a different style is gunning for you. Once they accomplish what "cant be done" every single thing that has been said in conjuction with that disproven statement becomes suspect and people naturally tend to dismiss it.

This is why its far better to put your theory out there, build on it but dont ever act like its all figured out unless you have a ton of scientific evidence to back it up.

And even then in science with real researchers and people with all sorts of letters behind their name you still see their theories get absolutely demolished on a regular basis.

I can say for me personally Ive had some pretty darn good accuracy with paracord and wide grip apache slings. And I can probably count the amount of unexpected releases while using decent ammo on one hand. And thats out of 10s of thousands of shots. So that right there is a big problem.

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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #29 - May 14th, 2021 at 11:55am
 
I'm in agreement with you NooC & Morphy.

I'm not saying there's no value in these views (far from it, I actually think there are kernels of truth in there most likely) but there is no evidence to back up the confidence with which these are asserted, aside from anecdotal, and anecdotal is worth very little given the propensity towards confirmation bias (nothing personal to you J, it's part of how humans think).

I'm sure I've said this before J but if you couched your statements with 'I think', 'this might' etc it would be much more warmly received. People really don't like being told the *way* things are when they are still very much open debates with little evidence or consensus either way.

There are many people on the forum who have experienced very solid accuracy with thinner slings, I myself have seen good accuracy with both types (again, this is anecdotal, but you begin to see how anecdotal is low value evidence because it points everywhichway for different people with different experiences).

Personally I think most of this current vogue for thicker slings being more accurate is simply because they favour heavier ammunition, which has inherent accuracy advantages over lighter ammunition; 1) Slower slinging speed reduces margin of error 2) Slower air travel speed reduces aerodynamic effects 3) More mass means less acceleration/deviation exerted by external forces (mostly aerodynamic, but possibly could allow for cleaner pouch exit too).
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