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Sling technicalities rant (Read 1292 times)
J
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Sling technicalities rant
May 6th, 2021 at 11:25am
 
I have some criteria for my slings. First and most important, they must not oscillate radially - that is, the cords must not twist or cross when twirling but must stay taut respective to each other,† when I sling my general preferred weight of stone, which tends to be around a 150 grams. Second, the sling most not oscillate longitudinally when twirling, so the projectile
does not move in the pouch when twirling, but stays taut. This is a matter of using a no-gap narrow or tight grip.

At the same time I do like it when my sling has the capability to throw a very wide range of stones, from as little as 50 grams to as high as 500 grams or even a kilo.

Of course, I can't make the sling truly free of oscillation beyond a certain ammo weight range, making the sling oscillation free for 500 gram stones results in a very heavy and stiff sling unsuited for lighter stones. I tried. So I make my slings oscillation free for stones generally up to 150 or 200 grams.
But the pouch will still be able to hold 500 gram rocks, or 50 gram rocks. The only pouch that fits this in my experience
is a wide -- but not too wide - and long enough split pouch.

I have no problems with ammo dropping from a good split pouch or through a split pouch since I started using the narrow grip of the sling in my hand. I cannot see myself returning to using a wide grip. I see the wide grip as a bandaid for a different issue with the sling. And the wide grip has always just felt unnatural to me, in my view. Making it the default grip is not good practice I believe.

The problem with the wide grip, is that while it is genuinely utilized to overcome issues of radial oscillations, which come as a result of a sling cord that is too floppy in respect to the projectile, the wide grip introduces a new problem, longitudinal oscillations !. Longitudinal oscillations are the movements up and down of the sling cords, that happen with a wide grip, during the twirly phase, and can produce premature projectile dropping out of the pouch.

Again, to solve this issue, instead of dropping the wide grip, many would simply beef up the pouch, make it more cupped, etc etc. But this again leads to other problems !

That is why I don't think the wide grip is good practice. It leads to a new problem which requires a new solution which leads again to a new problem....

† There is a better way to overcome radial oscillations than to use a wide grip. That is to use a stiffer, denser cord, just stiff enough to overcome the oscillations. I find that a flat braid is very effective for this, but a round braid can work just fine as well as long as it's stiff and dense enough. And make sure the pouch is not too heavy in relation to the cords, otherwise
there will already be radial oscillations without any ammo in the pouch !

Fundamentally the sling is nothing more than a piece of string with a weight in the middle that is twirled around and then released. To get consistent release from this, the cords must stay taut in respect to each other during the twirly phase.

We already know that sling cords can be too thin and that this has drastic negative effect on accuracy. Try slinging with 0.5 mm cords and the oscillations are through the roof. The path and spin of the projectile are very erratic and not true and sound as they should be for actual training purposes. Sometimes the projectiles take a nosedive, other times they skeet to the left or right. Because the pouch orientation cannot be controlled.

A lot of slingers here still use slings and stones that osscilate too much. I can see this in their videos. They often
use a wide grip to try and overcome some of this and regain back some control† I understand the nice efficiŽnt feel of these thin slings cuttign through the air, but to me it's not worth it compared to the nice feeling of an osscilation free-sling.† The path, spin of the projectile and releases becomes so much more sound. It's hard to put into words. It's almost identical to releasing a bola Perdida, but with rifle spin attached. Ever since learning this whole ordeal I wrote above, which took me to long time to finally grasp, my respect for the sling has increased significantly and  my joy of slinging increased greatly, and I no longer have any any sling dilemmas. Training as well feels much more productive.
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Sir Missalot
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #1 - May 6th, 2021 at 12:03pm
 
Wow!  You have put a lot of analytical thought into this!  Very admirable.

For myself, I'm just thrilled silly to throw things a little more accurately and a lot harder than I can with my naked hand.  Maybe I should demand more of myself.

Is there a design that you have that meets your criteria for which you can share a construction tutorial?
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J
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #2 - May 6th, 2021 at 2:25pm
 
For a while I did a lot of experimenting with throwing a singleweight bola at short distances. It made me understand the sling and how it works much better. And also how to judge a good natural trajectory of a slung object. I was flabbergasted at how easy it was to be accurate with a singleweight bola after a days worth of practice throwing at a target 10 meters away. Why was it so much easier than using the sling? I started taking note of the very subtle aspects of slinging, and studying and becoming aware exactly of how the sling behaves. After the whole Y-sling fiasco, I learned that it was improper internal ballistics of my regular slings that screwed up the trajectory of my throws. It is very counterproductive to train to sling like this ! Because the release point might have been perfect, but because of screwed internal ballistics, the trajectories were skewed also. This leads you to believe to readjust your release point, while in fact your release point was never the cause of the erring shot, but instead it was the caused by an improper internal ballistics. This leads to a bad cycle and is the prime cause of the slings legendary ''skill ceiling.'' The truth is, this skill ceiling is not as high as told. Most of it being a result of misuse and improper understanding of the sling. A logical result, because few slingers even seem to be able to explain what they are doing and instead just let instinct rule and teach for years on end. The Balaeric sling culture does seem to have discovered to eliminate unwanted oscillations, al be it subconsciously to my knowledge because I have never read any literature on it. Likely it was just from mouth to mouth, father to son.

When it comes to designs. Round, square, flat, it does not matter. Just make sure that if you are throwing for accuracy, that when the sling is loaded, the cords stay taut and in line respective to each other with the pouch responding directly to the wrist and not oscillating back and forth afterwards. Some minimal oscililation is not a big issue. But large oscillation are. My estimate is that 20 degrees or so more pouch deviation from the center radial line is when issues begin. In some videos I see deviation of 90 degrees! No wonder they ask themselves afterwards why they misses tehri target.
And I have explained why opting for a wide grip is not a good solution to solve problems with oscillation. But that is up to the slinger himself. I hope the slinger himself will discover these things eventually.

† All slings are different. I am not saying a thin cord sling, like a single cord paracord sling is now useless. Absolutely not. In fact I have found them perfectly adequate when it comes to minimal oscillations as long as I keep the ammo weight below a certain threshold. Even with a narrow, tight grip. But problems arise when I try to throw 200g rocks with a single paracord sling.
The worst sling when it comes to oscillations in my experience are thin, twisted ply slings. Yes, their velocity they produce is high, but the trajectories very unpredictable. These twist and oscillate so easily. Braiding tight is much better.
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Curious Aardvark
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #3 - May 6th, 2021 at 2:54pm
 
thye weight on a cord IS a great training aid.
It's something Roman and the chamoros have been using for a few years.

They use tennis balls and paracord.

We used some on one of the visits we made to schools in mallorca.
Starting the kids on a string-ball definitely improved their technique when they graduated to slings.

I'd almost forgotten about that - cheers J.

I need to get some made.
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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One †- works for me Smiley
 
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Sir Missalot
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #4 - May 6th, 2021 at 3:55pm
 
J - I wouldn't call your adventure in the Y-sling a fiasco at all.  It was an exploration, and I was fascinated and wanted to try it myself.  What would be the simplest way to make one, paracord and medical tape?  Does it work best if the two cords reconverge or stay separate?

Curious - the first time fiddled with a single bola was when I was 4 and broke my paddle ball toy. Sad
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Morphy
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #5 - May 6th, 2021 at 4:44pm
 
J wrote on May 6th, 2021 at 11:25am:
The problem with the wide grip, is that while it is genuinely utilized to overcome issues of radial oscillations, which come as a result of a sling cord that is too floppy in respect to the projectile, the wide grip introduces a new problem, longitudinal oscillations !. Longitudinal oscillations are the movements up and down of the sling cords, that happen with a wide grip, during the twirly phase, and can produce premature projectile dropping out of the pouch. 



I applaud your desire to understand the sling better. Iíve been doing this for awhile as well and I feel like itís a constant battle of 2 steps forward and 1 step back as far as theory goes. Sometimes itís vice versa but thatís the nature of the beast.

So that being said let me ask you some questions and maybe we can take another step forward together.

1st, how sure are you that a wide grip causes premature release/dropping? If the premise of this theory is largely based on this motivating factor it would seem prudent to make sure that this theory is true. Otherwise you will be trying to fix a problem which either doesnt exist or exists for a reason other than that which youíve theorized. What evidence can you offer that this is the case? If it is the case, is it so for everyone and if it isnít so for everyone; why is that?

2nd, If itís not universal then is it possible that this is more to do with something in your throw rather than something caused by all wide grip releases?

I ask these questions because for myself personally Iíve never had a premature release with a paracord apache sling where the ammo was the correct size for the sling. If I have itís so rare that I cannot remember the last time thatís happened.

Iím initially focusing on this one question because before we get lost in the weeds here on all the things you mentioned letís look at the premise that precedes all the other theories.

The other question I have for you is, what is the main goal you are looking for in this theory? Greater distance? Accuracy? Safety?

If itís accuracy you should post some data on the Max Accuracy thread because that thread is there to answer these types of questions.

So right now Mersa has pretty much blasted everyone elseís score out of the water with a thin corded dyneema sling. Although I donít know if he uses a wide or narrow grip and such scores canít tell us as much detail as we would like, they certainly tell us whether something is possible or not. And right now heís left us in the dust with his thin corded sling.

On the other hand... Probably one of my favorite slings Iíve ever used has been IGís balearic and it has many of the qualities you are talking about. I canít be sure right now without a whole lot more testing that itís any ďmoreĒ accurate but it certainly didnít seem any ďlessĒ accurate than the best slings Iíve tried. Iím definitely open to the idea that lateral oscillations maybe cause release problems but again, I have zero real evidence on that. So far anyways.

Ok, well those are my thoughts. Good post man, as always!

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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #6 - May 6th, 2021 at 7:22pm
 
These two are my favorite sling designs for adressing the issues you mentioned J. I personally love my flat pouch the most, but this split pouch sling also helps with oscillating in both orientations. The flat pouch just has the best accuracy, even though it is almost 6 inches longer. It looks like it might twist a bit, but it actually doesn't hardly at all. These two designs, and possibly the one I am making now, will probably be my go to designs to perfect. Both of these can hurl huge, and slingshot sized stones. The split pouch is tougher that tiny, but can be done
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J
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #7 - May 7th, 2021 at 4:22am
 
Morphy wrote on May 6th, 2021 at 4:44pm:
J wrote on May 6th, 2021 at 11:25am:
The problem with the wide grip, is that while it is genuinely utilized to overcome issues of radial oscillations, which come as a result of a sling cord that is too floppy in respect to the projectile, the wide grip introduces a new problem, longitudinal oscillations !. Longitudinal oscillations are the movements up and down of the sling cords, that happen with a wide grip, during the twirly phase, and can produce premature projectile dropping out of the pouch.†



I applaud your desire to understand the sling better. Iíve been doing this for awhile as well and I feel like itís a constant battle of 2 steps forward and 1 step back as far as theory goes. Sometimes itís vice versa but thatís the nature of the beast.

So that being said let me ask you some questions and maybe we can take another step forward together.

1st, how sure are you that a wide grip causes premature release/dropping? If the premise of this theory is largely based on this motivating factor it would seem prudent to make sure that this theory is true. Otherwise you will be trying to fix a problem which either doesnt exist or exists for a reason other than that which youíve theorized. What evidence can you offer that this is the case? If it is the case, is it so for everyone and if it isnít so for everyone; why is that?

2nd, If itís not universal then is it possible that this is more to do with something in your throw rather than something caused by all wide grip releases?

I ask these questions because for myself personally Iíve never had a premature release with a paracord apache sling where the ammo was the correct size for the sling. If I have itís so rare that I cannot remember the last time thatís happened.

Iím initially focusing on this one question because before we get lost in the weeds here on all the things you mentioned letís look at the premise that precedes all the other theories.

The other question I have for you is, what is the main goal you are looking for in this theory? Greater distance? Accuracy? Safety?

If itís accuracy you should post some data on the Max Accuracy thread because that thread is there to answer these types of questions.

So right now Mersa has pretty much blasted everyone elseís score out of the water with a thin corded dyneema sling. Although I donít know if he uses a wide or narrow grip and such scores canít tell us as much detail as we would like, they certainly tell us whether something is possible or not. And right now heís left us in the dust with his thin corded sling.

On the other hand... Probably one of my favorite slings Iíve ever used has been IGís balearic and it has many of the qualities you are talking about. I canít be sure right now without a whole lot more testing that itís any ďmoreĒ accurate but it certainly didnít seem any ďlessĒ accurate than the best slings Iíve tried. Iím definitely open to the idea that lateral oscillations maybe cause release problems but again, I have zero real evidence on that. So far anyways.

Ok, well those are my thoughts. Good post man, as always!



I called this post of mine a rant because it sort of is, just me ranting away some thoughts, although not meant in an angerly fashion.

A wide grip does not have to cause a premature release or drop. But the overall chance for such a thing to happen is higher. Simply due to the fact that there are now longitudinal oscillations introduced. I do think this is universal. Our bodies cannot rotate our wrists in such a fashion to completely alliviate this oscillation on the cords and pouch with a wide grip. This is only cancelled out when the pivot point for both cords is more or less the same place in the hand. They are virtually nonexistent when the cords are grapped side by side or on top of each other. The result in my experience? This does increase safety a lot.

What I mean by longitudinal oscillation. Place a stone in your sling and hold your sling pouch and stone up in the air
with your left hand. Grip the sling with a wide grip with your right hand, with for example the loop around the ring finger.
Now move your left hand that is holding the stone in the pouch up and down. Note how the axis of the projectile
does not sit static with the pouch but moves slightly. This movement happens every time we rotate our wrist
with a wide grip and is the prime cause of premature release when it does happen.

Now use a tight no gap right in your right hand and perform the same test. See how the projectile stays taut in the pouch while you move the left hand up and down. There is no real movement. draw an imaginary line from the center of the stone
to the center of your hand. This line stays the same throughout rotation of a sling with a narrow grip. But with a wide grip,
this imaginary line moves off center back and fro every rotation, hence the oscillation.

When I give a sling to a new beginner and see them try out the wide grip, it almost always leads to a premature release.
Because they don't know to rotate the wrist at all. On the other hand, the tight grip does not lead to a premature release.
For them it feels more natural and instinctual to hold a sling like this. Many slingers do start out with this grip naturally, given a sling and having to figure it out how to use it on their own.
But later as they get more advanced they swap to a wide grip because it feels more accurate or consistent.
That's logical. Considering that when they did start with the narrow grip, they probably used a very simple beginners sling that was too floppy to achieve consistent pouch orientation with a narrow grip. So naturally a wide grip with the same floppy sling feels more accurate or consistent. But a better solution would have been to stay with that natural instinctual tight grip, and instead improve their sling to handle oscillations better. That's what I believe anyway. My experimentation showed
that achieving this is not far fetched. That is, rifled shots and good pouch control with a no gap grip. It's easy, as long
as the setup is balanced. And it feels damn good

@Duckhands both look like very nice slings.
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #8 - May 7th, 2021 at 6:09am
 
This discussion is interesting. And therefore several points of view must be presented.

https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1598337147

What advantages do they have in this way for holding the sling ?
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J
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #9 - May 7th, 2021 at 12:41pm
 
I don't know, I just see disadvantages, it looks comical to me.
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #10 - May 7th, 2021 at 1:21pm
 
I mostly use short Balearic-type slings and use a low-gap grip, and it feels very natural in that context. I find it to be a very comfortable grip as well.
Asymmetrical finger-loops also help provide a little bit of a gap, while keeping the loop and the cord next to each other. I believe they also provide slightly better twist resistance (only if the thick part is on top) and more comfort.
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #11 - May 7th, 2021 at 2:15pm
 
I have trouble throwing flat, I know it can be done cuz i have done it.

But how i did it is a mystery
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #12 - May 7th, 2021 at 2:19pm
 
I don't know me too.
I don't think they were in the comedy. For their use, it had to be very effective.
That being said, I very much appreciate reading you.  Smiley
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J
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #13 - May 7th, 2021 at 3:58pm
 
How I started gripping a flat cord sling and a round cord sling. The fingerloop is on the pinkie.

Flat cords on top and round cords side by side. With both grips I let go of the release cord† in front of the retention cord
and somehow magically I get a great spiral spin, when I use the correct ammo for these slings. I studied this in slowmotion,
and upon opening the sling moves to the right pouch orientation for an intrinsic spiral spin that comes with a balanced set up. This lead me to believe that a spiral spin, although some times with yaw angles slightly upwards, is the default spin placed on a projectile for a correctly balanced sling and projectile. I also noticed that when I sling hard, and some times the yaw angles are angled slightly upwards in the beginning, they stabilize quickly and yaw straight.

The full fist grip allows tremendous power, and the smooth release cord a swift release from the hand, in my experience after swapping back and forth between release knots, tabs, and smooth cords many times, the latter are the best.
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Re: Sling technicalities rant
Reply #14 - May 7th, 2021 at 9:43pm
 
J you are more than welcome to state your opinions. They may be right or wrong, but I personally would like to see you demonstrate how your theories play out in the real world too. How about some videos demonstrating accuracy with the perfect sling/ammo combination? How about some participation in some of the friendly slinging challenges to back up your assertions?
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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