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Easy sling shotgun technique (Read 3194 times)
Duckhands
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Easy sling shotgun technique
Apr 6th, 2021 at 11:05pm
 
Just take a standard "banana hammock" shape formed pouch sling. Add in a handful of small gravel, or 3/8" ball bearings. Then pop on a round flat stone approximately the diameter of the widest point of the pouch. Pack down your shot with the rock (like a black powder musket wad.) Then just throw normally. Side arm makes a wide spread left to right, and under hand or overhand make the spread go up, or down respectively. I will post a couple videos showing these two loads being thrown toward the water. With the rocks it was such a wide spread that probably half of them rained onto the shore, and hit the trees near the water. This could be handy for getting birds, in times of need. Could also deter a crowd of ill intentioned people potentially. I still plan to make my Blunderbuss sling. I just realized this last time I went rock tossin'.
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TOMBELAINE
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #1 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 1:50am
 
Hi,
What range ?
Because I think your idea is possible in the past.
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Jaegoor
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #2 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 5:08am
 
I'm a big fan of shotgun ammunition.  There is one problem, however.  Much more than three or four projectiles makes little sense.  Why?  They distribute the shot energy to each ball or stone.  So the more you shoot, the less energy each individual projectile will have.  Too many means that they will only scare the birds or their opponents.  But hardly hurt seriously.
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #3 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 8:20am
 
Isn’t it more related to the projectile just having less mass, more air resistance and potentially the interference with other projectiles.
I’m not sure, I’ll let someone else figure it out/explain it.


Cool idea with the large stone on top. As a split pouch user I’m stuck with 2,3,4 larger projectiles in the pouch .

Specialised shotgun slings seem cool too.

I still need to try the tissue paper technique, that “sounds” promising.
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JudoP
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #4 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 8:54am
 
Lighter projectiles scale way worse with air resistance, it's because volume and therefore mass increase faster than the area (which scales the air resistance effects) as you increase size.

For example if you have a stone of 10g which causes x air resistance then double it in diameter you have (2)^3= 8 times the mass with only (2)^2 =4 times the air resistance force. In practice this means you have a stone which bleeds speed at half the rate it was before (though in reality it's a bit more complex than this).

Essentially in practice it means lighter projectiles are more range limited than heavier projectiles as they bleed a greater proportion of their energy per second- at a given speed.

But also in a more simple way if you fire 10x10g projectiles vs 1x100g, then the 100g projectile will have 10x the energy of any 10g stone purely because the mass is 10x higher. It will also retain this energy over longer distances because of the above reasoning.
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Morphy
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #5 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 9:02am
 
Ya, as has been said that is the big issue with shotgun slings. You are getting the worst of both worlds.

Imagine how much slower a 10 oz stone slings than a 1 oz stone. Now apply that same speed but instead of the benefits of much heavier ammo you have all the drawbacks of a slower, larger stone with all the drawbacks of a very light projectile.

Using the wad stone is a good idea. I’ve never seen that tried yet to the best of my recollection.  Do you have any videos of it in use Duck? What are your thoughts on the over all power of it?
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #6 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 9:16am
 
This reminds me of buck and ball for muzzleloaders. "The load usually consisted of a .50 to .75 caliber round lead musket ball that was combined with three to six buckshot pellets." -Wikipedia
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #7 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 9:54am
 
Morphy wrote on Apr 7th, 2021 at 9:02am:
Ya, as has been said that is the big issue with shotgun slings. You are getting the worst of both worlds.

Imagine how much slower a 10 oz stone slings than a 1 oz stone. Now apply that same speed but instead of the benefits of much heavier ammo you have all the drawbacks of a slower, larger stone with all the drawbacks of a very light projectile.


For shotgun slings I assumed velocity of launch would be consistent regardless of ammo weight division but this is one other thing that makes the scaling even worse if you compare like for like launch energy. Air resistance scales as velocity squared, so higher speed is harshly penalised by air drag.

A 200g stone going 40m/s and a 40g stone at 90m/s have roughly the same launch energy (via 1/2mv^2) however the 200g stone will retain energy over it's trajectory much better. Even if it doesn't go as far it will hit with a much greater percentage of it's launch energy compared to the 40g fast stone which will have bled a lot of energy by the time it lands.

In fact you can work through the scaling on the drag equation to calculate that at launch the 200g will experience only 5^(2/3)  *  0.4444^2 =57.7% of the drag force experienced by the 40g stone, even though it is much larger in size and 5x harder to decelerate for a given force due to its increased mass. So not only does the 200g rock require 5x the force to cause the same deceleration, but it's actually experiencing LESS force because per energy you can travel at a much lower speed.

tl;dr moving something fast is harder to do than moving something large in air.
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #8 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 10:09am
 
Launch velocity of a 10 oz stone would seem to be much slower than a vey light stone. But you might have to dumb it down for me Judo. Im not the math guy lol. Sigh.  Grin

But yes Ive seen how much increased weight affects distance. Ive probably mentioned this multiple times but it was seriously eye opening for me. When using a very heavy 1.5 pound stone although I really felt launch velocity was much lower than say a 4 oz stone it went almost as far as my fartherest shot with 4oz concrete ammo and a 24inch sling.

Granted, I was using a much longer sling with the heavier ammo but even so the LV seemed much slower. It just *did not* want to slow down once in the air. At least nothing like lighter ammo. I have so many projects right now I cant keep up with them but one I would like to do is make a spine chart for slings and ammo. Im convinced shorter slings can potentially sling a lighter ammo just as far as much longer slings. Its just a matter of finding the point of diminishing return for each ammo weight/sling drag combo.
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #9 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 1:16pm
 
Hehe, well I'm probably not explaining it too well. I'll try simplify a little.

Basically your observations agree with what the math says.

Heavier stones will exit with lower velocity because simply they are heavier and the same amount of energy will not make them move as fast.

They will however maintain their speed much better than faster lighter stones because:

1) They have a LOT more mass and momentum (are more difficult to decelerate) but only punch a slightly bigger hole in the air. So even if the drag force is slightly stronger because of the size, it will not be big enough to counter out the much increased mass of the projectile.
2) If you compare like-for-like launch energy, larger projectiles will be shot more slowly. Air resistance really hates things moving fast and you will bleed away speed very quickly if you try it. It's simply more efficient to have something bigger travelling slowly than something smaller travelling quickly.

The speed retention can make for surprisingly high range on heavy stones. Whereas lighter stones will gradually slow in the air and then more or less fall to the ground, heavy stones will keep moving forwards and arc over their whole journey.
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #10 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 3:34pm
 
Jaegoor wrote on Apr 7th, 2021 at 5:08am:
I'm a big fan of shotgun ammunition.  There is one problem, however.  Much more than three or four projectiles makes little sense.  Why?  They distribute the shot energy to each ball or stone.  So the more you shoot, the less energy each individual projectile will have.  Too many means that they will only scare the birds or their opponents.  But hardly hurt seriously.

I for sure can get the distribution on the shot, however the same issue is a problem with shotguns. The further out the shot the more scattered and less leathal it is, however, for jumping out a pheasant, or closer ranges I feel it would still be very effective. In my test throws some of the rocks struck a few trees, and the sound of it hitting told me it hit pretty hard. Yes the range was less than a large rock, but so is the case of a shotgun vs any other gun. I will be doing more testing with some targets to gauge the damage level, and the effective ranges to still hurt. I like the thinking points, I still have tons to learn and appreciate advice. The range I ended up getting before it seemed they would just barely bounce off stuff was about 40 yards give or take.
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #11 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 3:43pm
 
Oh, but I am trying to think of a way to get the range further, and the scatter tightened up, with less energy lost. Again not arguing with the maths. I am just saying it is intended to be similar to a shotgun. Which has lots less range, for the same reasons as a sling launching one stone, vs many small stones, or maybe like a shotgun slug vs bird shot is a better equivalent. If you have ever had bird shot rain down on you it is like Jaegoor described, it just doesn't hurt. Feels freaky, but you just get hit by the falling speed of the projectile at that point. However take the same shot from 15 feet and ouch Grin
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #12 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 3:50pm
 
JudoP wrote on Apr 7th, 2021 at 1:16pm:
Hehe, well I'm probably not explaining it too well. I'll try simplify a little.

Basically your observations agree with what the math says.

Heavier stones will exit with lower velocity because simply they are heavier and the same amount of energy will not make them move as fast.

They will however maintain their speed much better than faster lighter stones because:

1) They have a LOT more mass and momentum (are more difficult to decelerate) but only punch a slightly bigger hole in the air. So even if the drag force is slightly stronger because of the size, it will not be big enough to counter out the much increased mass of the projectile.
2) If you compare like-for-like launch energy, larger projectiles will be shot more slowly. Air resistance really hates things moving fast and you will bleed away speed very quickly if you try it. It's simply more efficient to have something bigger travelling slowly than something smaller travelling quickly.

The speed retention can make for surprisingly high range on heavy stones. Whereas lighter stones will gradually slow in the air and then more or less fall to the ground, heavy stones will keep moving forwards and arc over their whole journey.

To be clear I am not arguing the maths etc here lol
I knew the range would be limited compared to a single stone due to the spread as well as your very well thought math. I suck at math, I do most things by feel. So it is nice to have the math back up what I saw as well.
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #13 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 4:11pm
 
Duckhands wrote on Apr 7th, 2021 at 3:50pm:
JudoP wrote on Apr 7th, 2021 at 1:16pm:
Hehe, well I'm probably not explaining it too well. I'll try simplify a little.

Basically your observations agree with what the math says.

Heavier stones will exit with lower velocity because simply they are heavier and the same amount of energy will not make them move as fast.

They will however maintain their speed much better than faster lighter stones because:

1) They have a LOT more mass and momentum (are more difficult to decelerate) but only punch a slightly bigger hole in the air. So even if the drag force is slightly stronger because of the size, it will not be big enough to counter out the much increased mass of the projectile.
2) If you compare like-for-like launch energy, larger projectiles will be shot more slowly. Air resistance really hates things moving fast and you will bleed away speed very quickly if you try it. It's simply more efficient to have something bigger travelling slowly than something smaller travelling quickly.

The speed retention can make for surprisingly high range on heavy stones. Whereas lighter stones will gradually slow in the air and then more or less fall to the ground, heavy stones will keep moving forwards and arc over their whole journey.

To be clear I am not arguing the maths etc here lol
I knew the range would be limited compared to a single stone due to the spread as well as your very well thought math. I suck at math, I do most things by feel. So it is nice to have the math back up what I saw as well.


Of course, of course. I'm just adding info where I can. Yours is a good contribution.
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Re: Easy sling shotgun technique
Reply #14 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 4:21pm
 
JudoP wrote on Apr 7th, 2021 at 4:11pm:
Duckhands wrote on Apr 7th, 2021 at 3:50pm:
JudoP wrote on Apr 7th, 2021 at 1:16pm:
Hehe, well I'm probably not explaining it too well. I'll try simplify a little.

Basically your observations agree with what the math says.

Heavier stones will exit with lower velocity because simply they are heavier and the same amount of energy will not make them move as fast.

They will however maintain their speed much better than faster lighter stones because:

1) They have a LOT more mass and momentum (are more difficult to decelerate) but only punch a slightly bigger hole in the air. So even if the drag force is slightly stronger because of the size, it will not be big enough to counter out the much increased mass of the projectile.
2) If you compare like-for-like launch energy, larger projectiles will be shot more slowly. Air resistance really hates things moving fast and you will bleed away speed very quickly if you try it. It's simply more efficient to have something bigger travelling slowly than something smaller travelling quickly.

The speed retention can make for surprisingly high range on heavy stones. Whereas lighter stones will gradually slow in the air and then more or less fall to the ground, heavy stones will keep moving forwards and arc over their whole journey.

To be clear I am not arguing the maths etc here lol
I knew the range would be limited compared to a single stone due to the spread as well as your very well thought math. I suck at math, I do most things by feel. So it is nice to have the math back up what I saw as well.


Of course, of course. I'm just adding info where I can. Yours is a good contribution.


For real, I appreciate it, because I couldn't have thought of it that way without your contribution. Thanks. I love how knowledgeable this forum is. I did notice the steel shot lost a lot less energy for a further range than the stones. Smiley
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