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Forgotten ammunition? (Read 2420 times)
TOMBELAINE
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Re: Forgotten ammunition?
Reply #15 - Apr 5th, 2021 at 8:39am
 
Ok why not but a mace with a grooved stone attached to a rope is such a credible assomption.
It will take a lot of consistent indices.
Looking forward to reading you.
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Morphy
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Re: Forgotten ammunition?
Reply #16 - Apr 5th, 2021 at 9:43am
 
Question- is the cost of increased manufacturing time offset by the benefit? If so what benefit does this give that a normal stone, or one ground with a slight point but no groove does not?
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Curious Aardvark
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Re: Forgotten ammunition?
Reply #17 - Apr 5th, 2021 at 10:16am
 
the form would actually be really easy to make from clay.
You would just need a simple hand shaped mould to roll the clayu along to form the shape and groove.
So no increased manufacturing time or cost morphy.
It would be as easy to make as any other rolled clay form.

So that's not the issue.

The issue is with the sling and the shape of the pouch.

You need more than a single cord to hold the projectile as it won't balance.
And while I can't see any issues with it - I can't see any advantage it would have over a normal ovoid or spherical shaped glande either.

Our ancestors didn't do many things for fun - their whole life was about surviving.

So if they used this shaped sling missle - there would have to be a very good reason for it.
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Archaic Arms
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Re: Forgotten ammunition?
Reply #18 - Apr 5th, 2021 at 11:37am
 
Haven't tried this projectile yet, but I can see how it would would roll out of the pouch differently and perhaps cause less friction than the biconical shape (meaning cleaner releases).
Biconicals are not ideal for a flat pouch because the projectile has to do a balancing act, and lateral motion will put the projectile out of perfect alignment. The grooved projectile would be much more stable under the same circumstances.
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Jaegoor
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Re: Forgotten ammunition?
Reply #19 - Apr 5th, 2021 at 11:43am
 
Alex .  Nein.  Es braucht keine andere Schlingenform.  Das ist der Gedanke gehört .ein normaler gewebter Brief wie Cordaillot oder tut ench Amun Sling sind gehört gehört.  Das gewicht eines steines beult das gewebe aus.  Diese hohl Kehle verhinderte das.  Es gehört auch eine verwirrende Form sein.  Aus lehm ist diese Form sehr einfach zu finden.
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Re: Forgotten ammunition?
Reply #20 - Apr 6th, 2021 at 5:16pm
 
I noticed that it has a diabolo shape, like an airgun pellet.  With a rifle spin, it would be pretty stable.
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Forgotten ammunition?
Reply #21 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 12:13am
 
Sir Missalot wrote on Apr 6th, 2021 at 5:16pm:
I noticed that it has a diabolo shape, like an airgun pellet.  With a rifle spin, it would be pretty stable.


I had the same thought... but a diabolo bullet is only stable because the tail side has more drag. If it’s symmetrical, you don’t get the same effect.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Jaegoor
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Re: Forgotten ammunition?
Reply #22 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 5:58am
 
You can shoot it like a biconical gland too.  It can open with the tip or across.  It depends on how you shoot.  The interpretation is difficult.  That's why I try to bring some order.  Mesh countersinks only make sense if there was water nearby.  But even then, this use is questionable.  Mesh countersink are lost.  Like ammunition too.  The argument that it would be too laborious therefore applies to both.  Clubs.  In fact, that's a good explanation.  When they are made of stone.  A club made of clay or very small stones makes little sense.  So I'm not saying that these stones were all hurled.  My aim is to differentiate.  And what Hubert says is not true.  The hollow is not a disadvantage.  But on the contrary.  If you have a woven letter, the fabric will adapt to this hollow groove.  The sling will open very quickly.  Try it yourself. The Cordaillot Sling is very small.  Yes, filigree.  In addition, it is very complex to manufacture.  Unusually expensive for a sling.  I came across this shape because it almost comes naturally.  I fired thousands of these projectiles with it.  It works great.  I think I have enough experience to come up with such a theory
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Morphy
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Re: Forgotten ammunition?
Reply #23 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 8:55am
 
I make no judgment call on whether this is ammunition or not. My question is, what is most likely? Occams razor...

If the sling construction creates a problem it would seem easier to simply change the sling than the ammunition. That being said...look at India. Half the weapons they use should not exist. They are over engineered and underperforming, yet they do.

What corresponding evidence do we have that these might have been used for slinging? Do we have the tell tale double impression in someone’s skull where the shot might have hit sideways? We would need something fairly substantial to make that leap. Not saying it wasnt done...but do we have any evidence it was used?
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joe_meadmaker
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Re: Forgotten ammunition?
Reply #24 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 2:54pm
 
To me this design just screams out to have cordage wrapped around it.  Whether that's for a bola, sinker, or any other kind of counter-weight.

I do have a thought on this being used as a sling projectile though.  Something the groove reminds me of is the fuller on a sword.  A sword fuller is intended to reduce the overall weight of the blade.  Could this be used for the same purpose with a sling projectile?  If a very dense material such as lead is being used, having the groove around the center would reduce the overall mass.  Which means you could have a projectile with the same effective length and diameter of a biconical shape, but with less overall weight.
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Re: Forgotten ammunition?
Reply #25 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 6:44pm
 
I could see the shape causing some aerodynamic advantages. I have noticed sometimes with my glandes they can tumble and have an issue choosing a leading edge. Probably largely due to me being a new slinger and imperfect ammo. However I think of the tennis racquet flipping in space experiment. Where they rotate it along an axi, then it just randomly flips while continuing the rotation. Because the object has an oblong axi, it has been a while so don't quote my terms, that makes it need to flip to restabilize the centrifugal force. So in my head having the center lighter, and the ends with the bulk of the mass lighter it could help a poorly thrown projectile straighten out a bit in flight. I would be curious to see these shapes in a wind tunnel too. I am probably 100% wrong on my reasoning, but I do see that it is good to keep an open mind, and do the scientific process to deduce the efficacy of various uses of these items which are ultimately unknown.
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