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Question: Favorite Target Sling Length
*** This poll has now closed ***


18-20Ē    
  1 (5.6%)
20-22Ē    
  2 (11.1%)
22-24Ē    
  1 (5.6%)
24-26Ē    
  6 (33.3%)
24-26Ē    
  1 (5.6%)
26-28Ē    
  5 (27.8%)
28-30Ē    
  1 (5.6%)
32-34Ē    
  0 (0.0%)
34-36Ē    
  0 (0.0%)
Other, please specify    
  1 (5.6%)




Total votes: 18
« Created by: Morphy on: Apr 4th, 2021 at 10:37am »

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Max Accuracy Scoring Thread (Read 7273 times)
Morphy
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Max Accuracy Scoring Thread
Apr 4th, 2021 at 10:37am
 
Eww....hows that for a titillating title? Nothing gets people responding like definitions!!!† Roll Eyes

Now that you have most foolishly wandered into my web, hereís the question:

We hear over and over that certain throws are more accurate. But one thing we donít hear is ďHow much more or less accurate than another.Ē

Before we can decide on what is more or less accurate it would seem obvious we need to decide the upper limit of accuracy on whatever is considered the most accurate throw! Right?

But I know what you are thinking, we canít know, and more so there is no such thing as a most accurate throw.

That makes sense to me, so letís play hypotheticals. Using a Balearic scoring system what is the best score you are likely to get on a good day with your most accurate style from 20 meters over 20 shots?
This is something we can actually get hard answers to. Now what would be your average?

Some of you donít practice on a Balearic target so have no idea. Some are out of practice. Some a bit of both. If you canít give a rough answer without jeopardizing the accuracy of this question feel free not to answer . If you want to take an educated guess, go for it; be reasonable though.

So a hit on the square is 1 point. A hit on the diana, 2 points. The most points possible is 40 points. What say you?

Now, for the interesting part. If one style seems to have answers that are averaging a bit higher than others, and if people using...ahem...aesthetic throws, i.e. throws that look pretty but have no real substance or potential behind them then go out and meet or exceed said numbers would that be proof that there is no such thing as one perfect style? Or would that push people to gaining a greater understanding of these less traditional styles? I would hope both, but would settle for the second.

The reason I ask this is two fold. One, I tend to stay away from starting controversial subjects. I think this will be a peaceful Easter thread we can all discuss and really gain understanding and love from one another.

The other is that the only way to really know if one style exceeds others is to have very large, constant competitions as is done with archery or other shooting sports and then aggregate the numbers and look for trends.

The first point is bullshit of course and the second not possible at the present time so this is a start. We can set a hypothesis, get a baseline number and work from there.

Anyone interested in some good old fashioned conjecture?† Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2021 at 10:13am by Morphy »  

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xud9a - call me zud 👍
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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #1 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 11:49am
 
Yee Harr, this time I'm NOT responsible for starting the argument  Grin Grin
Definitions have no value without agreement on the meaning of the words used.... think about it  Smiley

Equally defining a physical action without agreeing the variables is worse than pointless.

So, in order to define the most ACCURATE (not best) style the variables must be eliminated.

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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #2 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 11:58am
 
In this instance the variables fall into three categories;
Environmental,
Physical,
Equipment.

So assuming all slingers are the same height,weight and strength and accepting
there will be no difference whether slinging in good weather with a supporting crowd of onlookers or alone on a snowy hill top.
We come to Equipment........
so in order to decide most accurate throw there must be no restriction on sling or projectile because we can't afford to reduce someones accuracy by dictating the equipment they use.
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My outlook on life is Aristotalean; on seeing an Acorn I see a potential oak tree rather than Plato's view that it is a failed copy.
Look forward to meeting at Slingfest 2022.
BE SAFE,† † BE SMILEY,† †BE STRANGE
 
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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #3 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 12:03pm
 
Or can we ?
Sorry Morphy, any trial on accuracy can only be meaningful if all participants use identical equipment.
Cheers

Zud Smiley
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My outlook on life is Aristotalean; on seeing an Acorn I see a potential oak tree rather than Plato's view that it is a failed copy.
Look forward to meeting at Slingfest 2022.
BE SAFE,† † BE SMILEY,† †BE STRANGE
 
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Morphy
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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #4 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 1:02pm
 
xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Apr 4th, 2021 at 12:03pm:
Or can we ?
Sorry Morphy, any trial on accuracy can only be meaningful if all participants use identical equipment.
Cheers

Zud Smiley



I disagree. In archery people choose what bow and arrows they are going to use. Many variables are permitted within reason. In golf, what clubs you use for a given shot is up to you. In bowling you choose a ball based on your strength, and the list goes on ad infinitum.†

It would be impossible to all use the same exact equipment since not everyone has the same strength, arm length, etc. If I use a shorter sling I might prefer light ammo. If I am 7 foot tall I may use a much longer sling than someone who is 4 ft 5. If I use a longer sling I might need heavier ammo to get the same feel in the pouch.

Materials used to make a sling also offer no advantage whatsoever. Mersa might prefer dyneema and IronGoober sisal.† I think everyone will attest to the fact that sling material does not make one accurate. The questionís validity stands in my mind.

Hope we get some answers.
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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #5 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 1:03pm
 
xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Apr 4th, 2021 at 12:03pm:
Or can we ?
Sorry Morphy, any trial on accuracy can only be meaningful if all participants use identical equipment.
Cheers

Zud Smiley


Thatís why I built myself a sling factory... I can crank out a bunch of identical slings and change one thing at a time.
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #6 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 1:04pm
 
For accuracy I prefer a medium sling with a sidearm throw. Thatís the best.
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Morphy
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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #7 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 1:09pm
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Apr 4th, 2021 at 1:04pm:
For accuracy I prefer a medium sling with a sidearm throw. Thatís the best.



Can you give your average target score? Is your target set up under balearic standards? Actually..no itís not. Doh... this might be a hard question to answer with so few people that can actually answer it.

The variables we need to account for are distance to target and target. Use whatever works best for you. That should be plenty. But even that is going to be difficult.
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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #8 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 2:57pm
 
   I am out of practice and generally don't sling at Balearic targets so any answer I give will contaminate your data.  So here is my contaminated answer.  My most accurate style is underarm.  It doesn't give me the best range though so for anything over a hundred yards I'd use Balearic.  My ideal sling length is 38"... half my height.
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Morphy
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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #9 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 4:27pm
 
Thanks RM.

I know youve always preferred a longer sling. Some of the Balearic slingers Ive seen are the same and are quite accurate.

I would love to know how many points you could get with underarm back at your best. Its an often forgotten throw.

If we even get a couple answers from people who have done the 20 shots at 20 meters I will be surprised. So many of us just sling at whatever. Worth a shot though.
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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #10 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 5:56pm
 
Morphy wrote on Apr 4th, 2021 at 1:02pm:
xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Apr 4th, 2021 at 12:03pm:
Or can we ?
Sorry Morphy, any trial on accuracy can only be meaningful if all participants use identical equipment.
Cheers

Zud Smiley



I disagree. In archery people choose what bow and arrows they are going to use. Many variables are permitted within reason. In golf, what clubs you use for a given shot is up to you. In bowling you choose a ball based on your strength, and the list goes on ad infinitum.†

It would be impossible to all use the same exact equipment since not everyone has the same strength, arm length, etc. If I use a shorter sling I might prefer light ammo. If I am 7 foot tall I may use a much longer sling than someone who is 4 ft 5. If I use a longer sling I might need heavier ammo to get the same feel in the pouch.

Materials used to make a sling also offer no advantage whatsoever. Mersa might prefer dyneema and IronGoober sisal.† I think everyone will attest to the fact that sling material does not make one accurate. The questionís validity stands in my mind.

Hope we get some answers.


https://www.rulesofsport.com/sports/archery.html

Suggests differently regarding archery.

In golf the ball is absolutely regulated and the clubs must be within certain parameters.

Bowling the ball is identical and regulated in weight classes.

and the list goes on ad infinitum ; Javelin, Discus, Hammer, Shot putt all regulated equipment.

Your hypothesis is to test the accuracy of styles.

The scientific method exists for a reason.

Why not write up your hypothesis and method of testing so you can be peer reviewed in order to produce statistically significant data ?

Cheers

Zud Smiley
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My outlook on life is Aristotalean; on seeing an Acorn I see a potential oak tree rather than Plato's view that it is a failed copy.
Look forward to meeting at Slingfest 2022.
BE SAFE,† † BE SMILEY,† †BE STRANGE
 
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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #11 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 6:39pm
 
I think I agree with Morphy.† The question is which style is the most accurate.† I think a restriction on the sling would be a mistake because it was stated in the proposal to use your most accurate style, and some slings are better with certain styles that others.† (On that note, someone needs to make a video of a pirouette throw with a balearic sling.† That would be funny.)

If we were testing the accuracy of a particular sling, then I would agree with Zud.† Everyone should definitely be using the same sling in that situation.† But if the idea is to get data of the best accuracy possible, then I think each slinger needs to be using their preferred sling and style.

I don't disagree with your general point Zud.† I think certain restrictions would result in more specific data.† But in early stages of data collection, I don't see any problem with gathering fairly general data just to see what kind of response there is here on the forum.† If there's a lot of participation, then maybe we try to get more specific information.

I'll be able to get you some numbers Morphy.† I've started trying to incorporate regular target slinging into my routine now that the weather is getting nicer.† My target is almost identical to a balearic size.† I'm trying to get out and sling 3 or 4 times a week, and I do a round of 24 throws (that's how many ice balls I can make in 24 hours).† I'm pretty terrible right now because we're not far past the lull of winter.† Another thing is my target is closer to 15m away.† But maybe my accuracy can be cut to 75% since that is the proportion of 15m to 20m.† I know that's not how it would work in reality, but I'm at the max distance I can do with how I have things set up.† Anyway, I'll get the data from my last few rounds posted soon.
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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #12 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 7:22pm
 
Morphy wrote on Apr 4th, 2021 at 1:09pm:
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Apr 4th, 2021 at 1:04pm:
For accuracy I prefer a medium sling with a sidearm throw. Thatís the best.



Can you give your average target score? Is your target set up under balearic standards? Actually..no itís not. Doh... this might be a hard question to answer with so few people that can actually answer it.

The variables we need to account for are distance to target and target. Use whatever works best for you. That should be plenty. But even that is going to be difficult.


Distance is exactly 13 paces. Target is shaped like a Balearic target, but itís slightly smaller. My average is around 60% hits.
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #13 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 9:02pm
 
We are getting off subject here but for the sake of clarity, let me just say you should do a google image search on ďolympic archery bowsĒ and take a look at the amount of variety of gear they are using.

Archery being from the same time period as slings and also having grown from a weapon of war into a sport is probably the best analogue for an approach to sling competitions.

The main thing these bows have in common is they are all olympic recurves (a huge category). Look at all the different brands and styles. They are almost endless. Anyone reading this can do a quick google search and see I am not making this up. Donít even focus on the minutia of stabilizer types and set ups. Just look at the variety in the risers themselves. Tons of different models and none of those models are shaped haphazardly. Millions of dollars go into researching and designing risers to have the best characteristics. They offer various benefits and drawbacks.

...

Notice the lady on the left has only a middle stabilizer. While the others have top stabilizers as well. And these are all from the same shooting team in the same competition with the exact same rules. Go look on google man. Sorry but you are incorrect.

Anyways, back to the more general discussion.

The reason forcing everyone to use the exact same type, weight, length, pouch length, material etc slings is because we are not looking for just one thing. We are looking for trends. For example, If we have 100 people competing and each is using their best sling for their style what would that show us? Well, it would show us, for example, that group A among Fig-8 slingers does better with this type of sling. Thatís a general trend we can then choose to focus on. Likewise, we might see that Group H - those who use Balearic slings with 1 rotation do better (or worse) than those who also use the byzantine with say wool peruvian slings.

So yes this is about accuracy, but specifically itís about the highest accuracy *possible* first and foremost. Once we have an upper limit we can then look at the particulars.

Dont get lost in the weeds here. You have talked about the scientific method. There is not just one way to perform a study. What I am suggesting is to focus on a meta-analysis of large amounts of studies/data. Not very specific data that only addresses one very specific aspect of the sport.

If we go in the direction you are suggesting we only know what style works best for a Balearic sling of a certain length, with a certain type of leather, with a certain braid, with a certain exact throw etc. It would be no surprise then if a Balearic style multi-rotational side arm throw then works best with a Balearic sling. But that tells us nothing. Again, Iím not looking for the best score with a certain set up. Iím looking for the best score possible with *any* set up. Which is why we cannot do it the way you are suggesting until we have a wider range of data.†




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Re: Letís Define, With Poll!
Reply #14 - Apr 4th, 2021 at 9:07pm
 
joe_meadmaker wrote on Apr 4th, 2021 at 6:39pm:
I think I agree with Morphy.† The question is which style is the most accurate.† I think a restriction on the sling would be a mistake because it was stated in the proposal to use your most accurate style, and some slings are better with certain styles that others.† (On that note, someone needs to make a video of a pirouette throw with a balearic sling.† That would be funny.)

If we were testing the accuracy of a particular sling, then I would agree with Zud.† Everyone should definitely be using the same sling in that situation.† But if the idea is to get data of the best accuracy possible, then I think each slinger needs to be using their preferred sling and style.

I don't disagree with your general point Zud.† I think certain restrictions would result in more specific data.† But in early stages of data collection, I don't see any problem with gathering fairly general data just to see what kind of response there is here on the forum.† If there's a lot of participation, then maybe we try to get more specific information.

I'll be able to get you some numbers Morphy.† I've started trying to incorporate regular target slinging into my routine now that the weather is getting nicer.† My target is almost identical to a balearic size.† I'm trying to get out and sling 3 or 4 times a week, and I do a round of 24 throws (that's how many ice balls I can make in 24 hours).† I'm pretty terrible right now because we're not far past the lull of winter.† Another thing is my target is closer to 15m away.† But maybe my accuracy can be cut to 75% since that is the proportion of 15m to 20m.† I know that's not how it would work in reality, but I'm at the max distance I can do with how I have things set up.† Anyway, I'll get the data from my last few rounds posted soon.


Thanks Joe, I do appreciate you taking part. Especially since you have shown yourself to be very capable†in target slinging.

As for right now, if you can give me the data you can collect we can apply Aussies accuracy index to it and see where you are at compared to those slinging at 20 meters. Best scores and average scores would be ideal as would as much info you can give about your sling and throwing style. Thanks again, it means a lot. We can learn a ton about this if we get enough info. Right now some is better than none.
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