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Total votes: 19
« Created by: Morphy on: Mar 12th, 2021 at 6:02pm »

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Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll! (Read 7045 times)
Morphy
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Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Mar 12th, 2021 at 6:02pm
 
Poll time!!! Who doesnít like a good poll? Ok dont answer that.

My question is, using the Greek throw as an example can we say it or other ďless lovedĒ styles arenít capable of good accuracy? I do wonder if many people are perhaps using too long a sling or small a stone with a throw that has a total wind-up/pitch of less than one rotation.

If you are used to a rotor is it possible we canít achieve the best results using our longer rotor sling or Balearic design?

Now, I know a guy who knows a guy who as we speak has beaten the fastest sling reload and throw speed record out there. Our reigning champ Mr. Jaegoor has set up a worthy record to try and beat and let me tell you, I have seen the video and it has been beaten. BUT... Iím not allowed to mention who at the moment. Nor would I ever without permission.

So. Why do I bring up speed reloading? Because I think we believe this throw and others donít work because we are applying the same designs and set ups to different throws. Not to mention mindsets.

This is not just about the Greek itís about all misplaced and unloved throws. And speed reloading is the main subject we have talked about recently where there was some debate whether it had any merit at all as a throw.

So, hypothetically speaking... do you think all these less used throws like the underarm, the Greek, the Apache are actually just as good in a lot of ways (potentially better in some) than more accepted throws and we simply havenít figured out the right way to get the best results with them? What could be changed in your set up to make them meet their true potential?

A video showing you trying something different with our lost and unloved throws would be awesome. Just to test and get people motivated to do it themselves.

I really want to look into this more. Any thoughts?

Wait...let me take cover...† Grin
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Hirtius
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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #1 - Mar 12th, 2021 at 7:57pm
 
You know what time it is, it's time for controversial opinions.

In my personal experience, "greek" style seems to work best with a short (50.8 cm/20 in) and less flexible sling. However, I don't like using it. I can get the same or better results with that sling with some other style.

Underarm is more usable, but it is personally an awkward arm motion. One thing I've heard people say before that underarm is for more range, but I highly doubt that. I can get higher speeds and can sling at different angles with other styles. It's neat, but in my experience it doesn't have much purpose.

Anyways, this related to a topic that I've wanted to talk about, but I've already recently made a couple of topics recently so I'm holding off. I'll summarize my thoughts.

Again these are my personal (Emphasis on this part!) perceptions and speculations.

For styles like "Greek" style and "Apache", I don't think they're "real styles". What I mean by "real styles" is that I don't think I they were ever used historically. While I don't know the origins for Apache, I have looked at a number of ancient depictions from Etruscan tombs to the near east (Kapara slinger relief) that depict the "Greek style". The reason I have this in quotations is not because it isn't Greek, but that I don't think these depictions are showing what we call "Greek style".

Let me explain. First of all, is doing it myself. Although I don't have the experience of others, I have been slinging for a while. In that time, I've tried out the Greek style (overhand and sidearm). My impression is... not good. The problem I run into is speed/power. In my experience, starting at the front is a suboptimal position. Although it's the main throw that gives it power, I feel it's harder to get to that point. The other potential indicator is in the art. In most examples I've seen, the sling is actually not above the head (as many do Greek style today), but to the side. Here are a couple examples:

https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/stone-relief-of-a-slinger-from-the-palac
e-of-king-kapara/7wE6wY7SpMgSMQ?hl=en
(Copy and paste the link or look up "King Kapara slinging relief")

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinView.aspx?sc=319922

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1577297750/9

They can be positioned to either side of the head, although the ones with the sling on the opposite side from the throwing arm† are somewhat awkward to me.

So what does this depict? My speculation is that it is both a pose and a starting point for one or more additional spins.

Remember how I said that the opposite side of the head from the throwing arm was a bit awkward? Well, it sort of has a parallel. The Polynesian style has the sling across the back. I can't remember where I read this (maybe it was on this website), but I read that the behind the back starting position leads into a single rotation, which then leads into the shot. I've actually tried this, and it works well. For background, my preferred style is the single rotation (Byzantine), so this wasn't much of an adjustment. I'm not saying the original "Greek style" was like this, as it could have been used with any amount of rotations.

---

Is Greek a bad style? I'd say yes, but it's kind of neat that this exists. It's also something that probably isn't used to its full potential, but that's probably because relatively few people probably invest into this technique. It might be for good reason that people don't do it, but it might be nice to try something different.

My position on Apache and Underarm are quite similar. They're cool and it's always great to try something new, but there is probably a reason they go unloved. I personally find them to have drawbacks in the way they work with the body.

However, if someone did get good with any of these or some other unconventional style I would love to see it.
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Morphy
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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #2 - Mar 12th, 2021 at 8:45pm
 
Hirtius wrote on Mar 12th, 2021 at 7:57pm:
You know what time it is, it's time for controversial opinions.

In my personal experience, "greek" style seems to work best with a short (50.8 cm/20 in) and less flexible sling. However, I don't like using it. I can get the same or better results with that sling with some other style.

Underarm is more usable, but it is personally an awkward arm motion. One thing I've heard people say before that underarm is for more range, but I highly doubt that. I can get higher speeds and can sling at different angles with other styles. It's neat, but in my experience it doesn't have much purpose.

Anyways, this related to a topic that I've wanted to talk about, but I've already recently made a couple of topics recently so I'm holding off. I'll summarize my thoughts.

Again these are my personal (Emphasis on this part!) perceptions and speculations.

For styles like "Greek" style and "Apache", I don't think they're "real styles". What I mean by "real styles" is that I don't think I they were ever used historically. While I don't know the origins for Apache, I have looked at a number of ancient depictions from Etruscan tombs to the near east (Kapara slinger relief) that depict the "Greek style". The reason I have this in quotations is not because it isn't Greek, but that I don't think these depictions are showing what we call "Greek style".

Let me explain. First of all, is doing it myself. Although I don't have the experience of others, I have been slinging for a while. In that time, I've tried out the Greek style (overhand and sidearm). My impression is... not good. The problem I run into is speed/power. In my experience, starting at the front is a suboptimal position. Although it's the main throw that gives it power, I feel it's harder to get to that point. The other potential indicator is in the art. In most examples I've seen, the sling is actually not above the head (as many do Greek style today), but to the side. Here are a couple examples:

https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/stone-relief-of-a-slinger-from-the-palac
e-of-king-kapara/7wE6wY7SpMgSMQ?hl=en
(Copy and paste the link or look up "King Kapara slinging relief")

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinView.aspx?sc=319922

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1577297750/9

They can be positioned to either side of the head, although the ones with the sling on the opposite side from the throwing arm† are somewhat awkward to me.

So what does this depict? My speculation is that it is both a pose and a starting point for one or more additional spins.

Remember how I said that the opposite side of the head from the throwing arm was a bit awkward? Well, it sort of has a parallel. The Polynesian style has the sling across the back. I can't remember where I read this (maybe it was on this website), but I read that the behind the back starting position leads into a single rotation, which then leads into the shot. I've actually tried this, and it works well. For background, my preferred style is the single rotation (Byzantine), so this wasn't much of an adjustment. I'm not saying the original "Greek style" was like this, as it could have been used with any amount of rotations.

---

Is Greek a bad style? I'd say yes, but it's kind of neat that this exists. It's also something that probably isn't used to its full potential, but that's probably because relatively few people probably invest into this technique. It might be for good reason that people don't do it, but it might be nice to try something different.

My position on Apache and Underarm are quite similar. They're cool and it's always great to try something new, but there is probably a reason they go unloved. I personally find them to have drawbacks in the way they work with the body.

However, if someone did get good with any of these or some other unconventional style I would love to see it.


Excellent thoughts Hirtius.  Iím glad you finally joined us. I hope others will chime in as well. You had so many things I could reply to I better hold off for now and see where this leads us.   Cheesy
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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #3 - Mar 12th, 2021 at 8:48pm
 
Greek style with a 95 cm long sling, can have good accuracy and power of the shot if you know some of the nuances, I was pleasantly impressed when I hit 3 times in a row from 20 meters in one direction with a difference of 2-3 meters.

In general, in order to achieve accuracy, try to pass the sling through the bottom almost vertically behind your back, as if pushing with your left hand and with your right hand you make a very short movement, the orientation of the pocket is just wonderfully controlled and the shot turns out to be powerful even if you have not invested decent body energy into it

Pass the dressing slightly behind your back at the time of the shot, it turns out, as it were, an instant interception - the transition from the left hand to the right

had the worst accuracy again when I did as others tried to copy. As I already wrote somewhere, each style needs to be redone for yourself so that it is convenient for you.

When I shot in the Greek style, making a swing, as it were, behind the neck and head, it turned out not as well as if my swing passed behind my back and smoothly intercepted from the left hand into the swing of the right hand (if you are right-handed) and vice versa, I can do it with both hands shoot in any style and subtype of style
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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #4 - Mar 12th, 2021 at 8:54pm
 
For me, the worst style is when the spin is going forward, I donít understand at all how to shoot like that, it turns out a throw with force, as if you were throwing your hand without a sling,
just like this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SXLtRxabYA&ab_channel=OlegAnatolich

But if you spin backwards, from top to bottom, it turns out much better, although it is still not so, my favorite styles are in order Byzantine, Greek, Balearic, Underarm
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Jaegoor
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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #5 - Mar 12th, 2021 at 8:56pm
 
On the subject of fast shooting.  I think it was Tint.  He also showed fast shooting.
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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #6 - Mar 12th, 2021 at 10:48pm
 
Morphy, I really don't care if you share it.† It's on a public website after all.

https://youtu.be/AZGlEKCkjic

Not as accurate as you, Jaegoor, but this was after about 30 minutes of practice and I wasn't concerned with being accurate.(I have practiced a few times previously, months ago, too).† As you can see, I'm pretty clumsy getting a new ball reloaded. This serves your point about the extra spin giving you more time to grab another ball, resulting in more fluid motion overall.† However, If I can get setup so I can grab two at once, I think I can get 12-14 shots in 30s if I can cleanly grab 2 at a time from my bag. And Fluidity will likely come from a bit more practice.

But I think that you are right, Tint demonstrated the fastest speed slinging I've seen. I think the video was taken down. I found his other videos and didn't see his fast slinging video.
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« Last Edit: Mar 13th, 2021 at 2:16am by IronGoober »  

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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #7 - Mar 13th, 2021 at 1:52am
 

The Apache is absolutely a historical style: https://web.archive.org/web/20121016033429/http://slinging.org/index.php?page=ho...

Although the Greek style is entirely a modern speculative interpretation, I am a firm believer in it because of its speed.
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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #8 - Mar 13th, 2021 at 4:31am
 
The idea of ​​grabbing two is good.  😁 I'll try that.  At some point I got 2 seconds per shot.  I also measured that at Tint.  It won't be much faster.  See their movement as a whole.  It's already very fluid.  In moments when you pull yourself out of your arms, you lose rhythm.  These are moments when the head starts to act.  I know that too.  Overall a nice video.
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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #9 - Mar 13th, 2021 at 10:33am
 
I like where this is going!  A little friendly competition pushes everyone to improve Smiley
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #10 - Mar 13th, 2021 at 11:31am
 
David Morningstar wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 1:52am:
The Apache is absolutely a historical style: https://web.archive.org/web/20121016033429/http://slinging.org/index.php?page=ho...

Although the Greek style is entirely a modern speculative interpretation, I am a firm believer in it because of its speed.


Why is all of that information gone now?
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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #11 - Mar 13th, 2021 at 11:35am
 
Resident Web Wizard Oxnate can answer more accurately I'm sure but basically a few years back the slinging.org website went peculiar and the whole thing was lost. Sort of. It's still possible to find most of it on the web archive and then I think C_A has the whole thing but in some unreadable format, or something, but Oxnate is currently working to resurrect/recreate/reanimate it.
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You are a great guy Kick but also slightly scary at times. - Morphy
"Nothing matters, but itís perhaps more comfortable to keep calm and not interfere with other people." - H.P. Lovecraft, in a letter to Frank Belknap Long, 7 October, 1923
 
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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #12 - Mar 13th, 2021 at 11:45am
 
Jaegoor wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 4:31am:
The idea of ​​grabbing two is good.† 😁 I'll try that.† At some point I got 2 seconds per shot.† I also measured that at Tint.† It won't be much faster.† See their movement as a whole.† It's already very fluid.† In moments when you pull yourself out of your arms, you lose rhythm.† These are moments when the head starts to act.† I know that too.† Overall a nice video.


I agree that ~2 seconds per shot is the fastest that is possible.  My ammo-bag kept falling closed when I was reaching for another ball, which made it difficult to be consistent.  I need to find something to hold it open and something to hold it in place, as it kept swinging around.

Jaegoor, does your ammo-pouch hold on to your belt? It looks very stable in your video(s).
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John R.
 
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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #13 - Mar 13th, 2021 at 12:11pm
 
A pouch like this works well. It's a cartridge bag for spent shells and hangs off a belt.
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You are a great guy Kick but also slightly scary at times. - Morphy
"Nothing matters, but itís perhaps more comfortable to keep calm and not interfere with other people." - H.P. Lovecraft, in a letter to Frank Belknap Long, 7 October, 1923
 
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Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Reply #14 - Mar 13th, 2021 at 12:20pm
 
This is another good one, a dump pouch. Good for tennis balls.
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You are a great guy Kick but also slightly scary at times. - Morphy
"Nothing matters, but itís perhaps more comfortable to keep calm and not interfere with other people." - H.P. Lovecraft, in a letter to Frank Belknap Long, 7 October, 1923
 
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