Slinging.org Forum - Giant Lead Glande?

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Giant Lead Glande?
Feb 25^th, 2021 at 12:28pm

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/G_1865-0720-106">https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/G_1865-0720-106
Very unusual.
Think it's meant to be thrown? At 506g it's certainly not an economical use of lead, but would have terrifying momentum.
Just to put it's weight into context, that projectile could be melted down to make 20 smaller, common glandes.

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Kick

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Re: Giant Lead Glande?
Reply #1 - Feb 25^th, 2021 at 12:58pm

Staff sling? They did have them back then so I guess it wouldn't be impossible. That being said, it being so big and inscribed... Could it have some decorative purpose? An advertisement? Hard to say. It obviously hasn't been used in battle (at least it doesn't look to have hit anything) so maybe it was never intended to be used as a real projectile.

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Sarosh Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Posts: 1140	Re: Giant Lead Glande? Reply #2 - Feb 25^th, 2021 at 1:44pm probably for training or sport? (hand throws) it could be for slinging but if there isnt a second one idk could also be the result of experiments with ancient artillery
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Hirtius

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Re: Giant Lead Glande?
Reply #3 - Feb 25^th, 2021 at 3:55pm

I doubt it's for staff slings or throwing. From what I've heard, staff slings don't put much of a spin on their ammo, which wouldn't make sense with the biconical shape. I'm also not sure if the biconical shape would help for throwing such a heavy object. It was probably was just really big ammo for a sling.

Slinging ammo of this size is very possible. I think Balearic slingers and Persian slingers according to Xenophon used fist sized stones of which might have been a similar weight. However, this is interesting because it's in lead. It would probably be a lot easier to throw, since part of the challenge of bigger stones is keeping it in the pouch.

Since this was on outlier it was probably just more experimental. The expense probably wouldn't have been worth it, but it at least looks fun to sling.

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Kick past-moderator Offline Posts: 4451 Finland	Re: Giant Lead Glande? Reply #4 - Feb 25^th, 2021 at 4:44pm That's a really good point about the biconical shape and staff slings. I hadn't considered that. Round ammo is best for staff slings.
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Hirtius

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Re: Giant Lead Glande?
Reply #5 - Feb 25^th, 2021 at 5:31pm

Sarosh also mentioned artillery. I don't know of lead artillery used by Greeks or Romans.

By the way, the initial post claims that 506 grams would be equivalent to 20 normal sized bullets, but that would make the average size around 25 grams. I think that's a bit too light. Most sling bullets are above 30 grams, and I think oftentimes the average was around 40. This is probably more like the equivalent to 12 bullets. Still fairly expensive.

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Archaic Arms

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Re: Giant Lead Glande?
Reply #6 - Feb 25^th, 2021 at 6:11pm

Hirtius wrote on Feb 25^th, 2021 at 5:31pm:

Sarosh also mentioned artillery. I don't know of lead artillery used by Greeks or Romans.

By the way, the initial post claims that 506 grams would be equivalent to 20 normal sized bullets, but that would make the average size around 25 grams. I think that's a bit too light. Most sling bullets are above 30 grams, and I think oftentimes the average was around 40. This is probably more like the equivalent to 12 bullets. Still fairly expensive.

You are correct, 30-40g is the general range for Greek projectiles, but as far as I know not many projectiles are found under ~25g during this period. ~25g seems to be the bare minimum weight for a 'normal' style of glande.

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Lewis

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Archaic Arms

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Re: Giant Lead Glande?
Reply #7 - Feb 25^th, 2021 at 6:23pm

If it was a projectile used for war, it makes sense to me that it would have been launched by a device that would have made most of it's density and shape (due to it's cost).
To me, that points towards light artillery as it would likely have much better range than stones.
It could also be experimental, although such projectiles would also be prime targets for after-battle looting.

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Lewis

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Hirtius

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Re: Giant Lead Glande?
Reply #8 - Feb 25^th, 2021 at 7:29pm

I have found instances of Macedonian sling bullets in Thrace and some speculated lead sling bullets in Peru that are around 25 - 30 grams. I wonder what they were thinking when they made them so light? I wish there would be in-depth tests to determine how much of an effect weight has.

I strongly disagree with a light artillery assessment. As mentioned, I haven't heard of lead projectiles being used before. More importantly, the shape is biconical. That's something I've never heard of with a siege weapon before. How does firing that work? What advantage does it give? Does it tumble, and how do you stop that?

It seems more likely is that it is just what it looks like, a scaled up sling bullet. The weight, 506 grams, actually seems to line up with historical accounts of large sling stones. Sarosh made a video on slinging larger stones a while back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03tvRSuyOXk

While the big stones obviously need to have more of a lob, I was impressed with the flight of the 450 - 500 gram stones. With lead biconicals, I'm sure it could be even better. I'm not sure how much the biconical shape helps at such a large weight, though. The larger stones he uses roughly line up with the "canoe buster" (possibly ceremonial) sling stones from some pacific islands which are over a kilogram.

The biggest surprise for me is that no one had tried this out before. I'm sure whoever made this was probably impressed with how terrifying it is, but was well aware of its impracticality in size and absurd cost.

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Archaic Arms

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Re: Giant Lead Glande?
Reply #9 - Feb 25^th, 2021 at 11:47pm

Hirtius wrote on Feb 25^th, 2021 at 7:29pm:

I have found instances of Macedonian sling bullets in Thrace and some speculated lead sling bullets in Peru that are around 25 - 30 grams. I wonder what they were thinking when they made them so light? I wish there would be in-depth tests to determine how much of an effect weight has.

I strongly disagree with a light artillery assessment. As mentioned, I haven't heard of lead projectiles being used before. More importantly, the shape is biconical. That's something I've never heard of with a siege weapon before. How does firing that work? What advantage does it give? Does it tumble, and how do you stop that?

It seems more likely is that it is just what it looks like, a scaled up sling bullet. The weight, 506 grams, actually seems to line up with historical accounts of large sling stones. Sarosh made a video on slinging larger stones a while back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03tvRSuyOXk

While the big stones obviously need to have more of a lob, I was impressed with the flight of the 450 - 500 gram stones. With lead biconicals, I'm sure it could be even better. I'm not sure how much the biconical shape helps at such a large weight, though. The larger stones he uses roughly line up with the "canoe buster" (possibly ceremonial) sling stones from some pacific islands which are over a kilogram.

The biggest surprise for me is that no one had tried this out before. I'm sure whoever made this was probably impressed with how terrifying it is, but was well aware of its impracticality in size and absurd cost.

I believe the reason why glandes were this light weight is due to a number of reasons. They were balancing economy, range, and terminal effect. Naturally they would have wanted the most effect for the cheapest possible price. We see that the later Romans generally used heavier glandes from ~50-90g which may have been because lead was cheaper and opponents became more armoured, but that is speculation.
Despite the cost, lead does make sense for a light artillery projectile. It's superior qualities would be much more noticeable in this context than something simply thrown by a sling (that is not to say it's wasn't meant for hand slinging though). Devices such as a scorpion could easily be constructed so that projectiles are launched with rifle spin, and I agree that it wouldn't be launched from something that couldn't take advantage of it's aerodynamic shape.

I love to sling stones around the 500g mark, they are very fun to throw and have great impact even over 100m. They are also quite practical in select circumstances like the 'canoe breakers' you mentioned, or close range pummeling to weaken the front lines at the beginning of a battle. This is me throwing a 590g stone 50m with my shortest, 15" sling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qpz8_gXCaA

Or for all we know it could just be someone's wacky idea like you said. I'd like to know what caused that big gash on the reverse side of it though.

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Lewis

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AncientCraftwork

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Re: Giant Lead Glande?
Reply #10 - Feb 26^th, 2021 at 3:46am

I also do not think it would be used for a staff sling, unless it was a hoopak, the biconical shape would not help.

I would love to have sling that projectile, I could get it over a 100 meters with pirouette, but economically better to just use heavy stones.

We see an Latin inscription on the projectile, and it is from Greece. It was probably slung by a regular sling. Probably as a novelty. An experiment. The striations lengthwise seems like it would increase the spin. This is probably required
to get spin in the first space. This shows they likely spiral spun it. I have slung smooth 250g lead biconicals and its hard to get the required spin from a sling. It would be eaven harder on a completely smooth 500g lead projectile, so it makes sense this one isn't smooth surfaced.

I read an account somewhere that slings and big stones were also used against war elephants, to wreck the occupants little cart ontop of the elephant, and they specifically said slings were the best way to do that if I remember correctly.

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TOMBELAINE Funditor Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 741 france Gender:	Re: Giant Lead Glande? Reply #11 - Feb 26^th, 2021 at 4:49am It is "too" good shape. Or it was used only for "decoration" ; or it is a false specimen. In any case, I have a doubt.
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Kick past-moderator Offline Posts: 4451 Finland	Re: Giant Lead Glande? Reply #12 - Feb 26^th, 2021 at 6:11am Yeah there is no damage at all. I think decoration or a "sample" piece. Who knows, it could be a prize or trophy. I seriously doubt it was ever actually thrown. Other bullets of a similar size? Maybe some were used, but this one is too perfect.
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Archaic Arms

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Re: Giant Lead Glande?
Reply #13 - Feb 26^th, 2021 at 11:00am

Kick wrote on Feb 26^th, 2021 at 6:11am:

Yeah there is no damage at all. I think decoration or a "sample" piece. Who knows, it could be a prize or trophy. I seriously doubt it was ever actually thrown. Other bullets of a similar size? Maybe some were used, but this one is too perfect.

Did you look at the other photo of the other side?
Not sure what caused that mark but it's more than superficial.

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Archaic Arms

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Re: Giant Lead Glande?
Reply #14 - Feb 26^th, 2021 at 11:10am

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 26^th, 2021 at 3:46am:

I also do not think it would be used for a staff sling, unless it was a hoopak, the biconical shape would not help.

I would love to have sling that projectile, I could get it over a 100 meters with pirouette, but economically better to just use heavy stones.

We see an Latin inscription on the projectile, and it is from Greece. It was probably slung by a regular sling. Probably as a novelty. An experiment. The striations lengthwise seems like it would increase the spin. This is probably required
to get spin in the first space. This shows they likely spiral spun it. I have slung smooth 250g lead biconicals and its hard to get the required spin from a sling. It would be eaven harder on a completely smooth 500g lead projectile, so it makes sense this one isn't smooth surfaced.

I read an account somewhere that slings and big stones were also used against war elephants, to wreck the occupants little cart ontop of the elephant, and they specifically said slings were the best way to do that if I remember correctly.

The striations are a good point, for the smaller glandes they are often slightly flat on one side which achieves the same thing.
As bad as it sounds, it looks like it would be a lot more effective than a stone if thrown directly at a war elephant, let alone the cart on top.

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Lewis

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