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Violence (Read 695 times)
Rat Man
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Violence
Feb 21st, 2021 at 3:30pm
 
     I have friends who are completely non-violent or try their best to be.  Though a noble thought in the real world this just isn't practical.  I believe that violence should always be the very last option but there are times when it is the only option and should be delivered with shock and awe.  It is unfortunately a violent world.  Life has taught me that on certain occasions it is totally necessary to answer back.
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Violence
Reply #1 - Feb 22nd, 2021 at 1:54am
 
It’s not available anymore but UC Berkeley used to have a set of course lectures on non-violence available online. By lecture #2 the professor was advocating preemptively shooting a person you suspect of being violent in the name of non-violence.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Morphy
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Re: Violence
Reply #2 - Feb 22nd, 2021 at 4:53am
 
I define violence as the bullet going through the attacker and hitting my car behind him.
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"I think this guy is the king of trolls of the forum, he waited 16 years just to say this. please pay your respects in an orderly fashion."-Sarosh
 
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Violence
Reply #3 - Feb 22nd, 2021 at 9:20am
 
If anything the world could use some more strong pacifists. I am not one. I doubt I ever will be nor will I teach my children to be. I will teach them that violence is the sledgehammer in the toolbox of life. A rarely used but vital tool. A tool more often misused than properly used but nonetheless a tool they may someday need.
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Curious Aardvark
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Re: Violence
Reply #4 - Feb 22nd, 2021 at 10:09am
 
Unfortunately while it should be the last option.
It's quite often the first and only one that some people and nations indulge in.

Humans are aggressive by nature, and that's not going away any time soon.
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Oxnate
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Re: Violence
Reply #5 - Feb 22nd, 2021 at 10:18am
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 10:09am:
Unfortunately while it should be the last option.
It's quite often the first and only one that some people and nations indulge in.

Humans are aggressive by nature, and that's not going away any time soon.



I disagree.  Wars make up most of the history books and crime makes up most of the news; but that's because those are actually very rare events.  And thus more interesting.

Humans became the dominant species on the planet by being peaceful and cooperative with each other.
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Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine:  'Yea' isn't the word you want.  It's 'yeah'.  'Yea' is an anachronistic word you see in the King James bible. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Spellcheck, I shall fear no misspellings for thou art with me.  Thy dictionary and thy thesaurus, they comfort me.
 
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Morphy
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Re: Violence
Reply #6 - Feb 22nd, 2021 at 10:47am
 
That’s one of my countries biggest failings IMO; wars of agression. The amount of suffering this country has wrought in the name of “operations” “peacekeeping missions” and “spreading democracy” is very saddening.

The usual rebuttal to this is “these people had it worse off before we came.” Sure sometimes, but there’s 3 problems with that,

1 that’s not always the case and Libyia is a prime example. According to what sources have said from behind the scene Obama himself called it a “shit show”.

2. these countries often regress to what their current level of culture and civility will allow them to maintain. Western civilization didn’t become what it is because people came in and forced it on us. We rebelled against tyranny and set up systems of democracy because our cultures had evolved to the point of seeing the benefit. We demanded it. It wasn’t forced on us. That’s the big difference.

3. Democracy doesn’t seem to matter to us where there is little benefit to our intervention. Actions speak louder than words. Rwandan genocide is a prime example.

Love my country, love our military, hate the politicans that are trying to screw both up. Oh well.

Annnnnnd...damnit this thread is about to go nuclear. Youre Welcome Friends!



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"I think this guy is the king of trolls of the forum, he waited 16 years just to say this. please pay your respects in an orderly fashion."-Sarosh
 
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Sarosh
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Re: Violence
Reply #7 - Feb 22nd, 2021 at 12:10pm
 
Against the powerless it's easy to say an eye for an eye. But when a cop is the one being aggressive what do you do?
It's easy to choose violence against a dehumanized or weak enemy.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 1:54am:
the professor was advocating preemptively shooting a person you suspect of being violent in the name of non-violence.

when suspicion of thoughtcrime is punished by death... Lips Sealed
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Oxnate
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Re: Violence
Reply #8 - Feb 22nd, 2021 at 12:33pm
 
Sarosh wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 12:10pm:
Against the powerless it's easy to say an eye for an eye. But when a cop is the one being aggressive what do you do?
It's easy to choose violence against a dehumanized or weak enemy.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 1:54am:
the professor was advocating preemptively shooting a person you suspect of being violent in the name of non-violence.

when suspicion of thoughtcrime is punished by death... Lips Sealed


Preached by those who call themselves "tolerant."
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Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine:  'Yea' isn't the word you want.  It's 'yeah'.  'Yea' is an anachronistic word you see in the King James bible. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Spellcheck, I shall fear no misspellings for thou art with me.  Thy dictionary and thy thesaurus, they comfort me.
 
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Rat Man
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Re: Violence
Reply #9 - Feb 22nd, 2021 at 12:42pm
 
Oxnate wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 10:18am:
Curious Aardvark wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 10:09am:
Unfortunately while it should be the last option.
It's quite often the first and only one that some people and nations indulge in.

Humans are aggressive by nature, and that's not going away any time soon.



I disagree.  Wars make up most of the history books and crime makes up most of the news; but that's because those are actually very rare events.  And thus more interesting.

Humans became the dominant species on the planet by being peaceful and cooperative with each other.


I disagree with your disagreeing.  As far back as you want to go human history was shaped by war.  It's not rare at all.  Take any piece of inhabited land on earth and check out it's past... one tribe after another killing the other off and taking over.  We are Killer Chimps, evolved to make war. The United States has been at war in some form or another for 222 out of 239 years of its existence. Amazingly the six years I served in the army we were completely at peace. What are the odds?  We even fought a war against ourselves.  Prior to that we fought England for independence. Prior to that we were murdering off the native inhabitants to steal their land.  Prior to that the native inhabitants were constantly warring with each other.  Pick anywhere on earth where humans live and it's the same story.  Not to be a downer but history is history. 
     Here is one thousand years of European border changes.  Practically all of these changes were brought about by war.  And this is just Europe and just one thousand years.  The story is the same everywhere and as far back as you want to go. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzXoc8y2G0k ; Take it back twenty five hundred years:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9P0QSxlnI
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Rat Man
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Re: Violence
Reply #10 - Feb 22nd, 2021 at 1:20pm
 
perpetualstudent wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 9:20am:
If anything the world could use some more strong pacifists. I am not one. I doubt I ever will be nor will I teach my children to be. I will teach them that violence is the sledgehammer in the toolbox of life. A rarely used but vital tool. A tool more often misused than properly used but nonetheless a tool they may someday need.


This
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Oxnate
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Re: Violence
Reply #11 - Feb 22nd, 2021 at 2:47pm
 
Rat Man wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 12:42pm:
Oxnate wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 10:18am:
Curious Aardvark wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 10:09am:
Unfortunately while it should be the last option.
It's quite often the first and only one that some people and nations indulge in.

Humans are aggressive by nature, and that's not going away any time soon.



I disagree.  Wars make up most of the history books and crime makes up most of the news; but that's because those are actually very rare events.  And thus more interesting.

Humans became the dominant species on the planet by being peaceful and cooperative with each other.


I disagree with your disagreeing.  As far back as you want to go human history was shaped by war.  It's not rare at all.  Take any piece of inhabited land on earth and check out it's past... one tribe after another killing the other off and taking over.  We are Killer Chimps, evolved to make war. The United States has been at war in some form or another for 222 out of 239 years of its existence. Amazingly the six years I served in the army we were completely at peace. What are the odds?  We even fought a war against ourselves.  Prior to that we fought England for independence. Prior to that we were murdering off the native inhabitants to steal their land.  Prior to that the native inhabitants were constantly warring with each other.  Pick anywhere on earth where humans live and it's the same story.  Not to be a downer but history is history. 
     Here is one thousand years of European border changes.  Practically all of these changes were brought about by war.  And this is just Europe and just one thousand years.  The story is the same everywhere and as far back as you want to go. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzXoc8y2G0k  Take it back twenty five hundred years:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9P0QSxlnI




Well, you're free to be wrong if you want.

You think that because there's a war "somewhere" then that's not perfect peace and therefore not peaceful.  I disagree.  In any given year most of the earth is at peace.  In fact, well over 90% peaceful in the era of Pax Americana.
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Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine:  'Yea' isn't the word you want.  It's 'yeah'.  'Yea' is an anachronistic word you see in the King James bible. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Spellcheck, I shall fear no misspellings for thou art with me.  Thy dictionary and thy thesaurus, they comfort me.
 
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Kick
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Re: Violence
Reply #12 - Feb 22nd, 2021 at 4:04pm
 
Humans are social animals. We don't do well alone and are actually very good at getting along with each other if you consider just how many interactions are happening at every moment every day. The main problems, as I see it, are greed (truly the root of all evil) and the failure of people to recognise our shared humanity. Lots of stupid reasons are invented to split us up because our brains, which developed, in the grand scheme of things, very recently, are having to deal with a world they just weren't designed to cope with. It's not a surprise if our stupid monkey brains react with violence in situations that perhaps don't require it.

...which is to say that yes, unfortunately, there are situations that require violence. Which sucks.
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You are a great guy Kick but also slightly scary at times. - Morphy
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Rat Man
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Re: Violence
Reply #13 - Feb 24th, 2021 at 8:22am
 
Oxnate wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 2:47pm:
Rat Man wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 12:42pm:
Oxnate wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 10:18am:
Curious Aardvark wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 10:09am:
Unfortunately while it should be the last option.
It's quite often the first and only one that some people and nations indulge in.

Humans are aggressive by nature, and that's not going away any time soon.



I disagree.  Wars make up most of the history books and crime makes up most of the news; but that's because those are actually very rare events.  And thus more interesting.

Humans became the dominant species on the planet by being peaceful and cooperative with each other.


I disagree with your disagreeing.  As far back as you want to go human history was shaped by war.  It's not rare at all.  Take any piece of inhabited land on earth and check out it's past... one tribe after another killing the other off and taking over.  We are Killer Chimps, evolved to make war. The United States has been at war in some form or another for 222 out of 239 years of its existence. Amazingly the six years I served in the army we were completely at peace. What are the odds?  We even fought a war against ourselves.  Prior to that we fought England for independence. Prior to that we were murdering off the native inhabitants to steal their land.  Prior to that the native inhabitants were constantly warring with each other.  Pick anywhere on earth where humans live and it's the same story.  Not to be a downer but history is history. 
     Here is one thousand years of European border changes.  Practically all of these changes were brought about by war.  And this is just Europe and just one thousand years.  The story is the same everywhere and as far back as you want to go. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzXoc8y2G0k  Take it back twenty five hundred years:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9P0QSxlnI




Well, you're free to be wrong if you want.

You think that because there's a war "somewhere" then that's not perfect peace and therefore not peaceful.  I disagree.  In any given year most of the earth is at peace.  In fact, well over 90% peaceful in the era of Pax Americana.


   My point is that there has been war EVERYWHERE literally countless times and EVERYWHERE there will be war again.  Until we finally wipe ourselves off of the planet. I very much prefer your point of view to mine.  It is a much more pleasant way to see things.  But I am a realist.
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Violence
Reply #14 - Feb 24th, 2021 at 11:03am
 
Rat Man wrote on Feb 24th, 2021 at 8:22am:
Oxnate wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 2:47pm:
Rat Man wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 12:42pm:
Oxnate wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 10:18am:
Curious Aardvark wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 10:09am:
Unfortunately while it should be the last option.
It's quite often the first and only one that some people and nations indulge in.

Humans are aggressive by nature, and that's not going away any time soon.



I disagree.  Wars make up most of the history books and crime makes up most of the news; but that's because those are actually very rare events.  And thus more interesting.

Humans became the dominant species on the planet by being peaceful and cooperative with each other.


I disagree with your disagreeing.  As far back as you want to go human history was shaped by war.  It's not rare at all.  Take any piece of inhabited land on earth and check out it's past... one tribe after another killing the other off and taking over.  We are Killer Chimps, evolved to make war. The United States has been at war in some form or another for 222 out of 239 years of its existence. Amazingly the six years I served in the army we were completely at peace. What are the odds?  We even fought a war against ourselves.  Prior to that we fought England for independence. Prior to that we were murdering off the native inhabitants to steal their land.  Prior to that the native inhabitants were constantly warring with each other.  Pick anywhere on earth where humans live and it's the same story.  Not to be a downer but history is history. 
     Here is one thousand years of European border changes.  Practically all of these changes were brought about by war.  And this is just Europe and just one thousand years.  The story is the same everywhere and as far back as you want to go. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzXoc8y2G0k  Take it back twenty five hundred years:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9P0QSxlnI




Well, you're free to be wrong if you want.

You think that because there's a war "somewhere" then that's not perfect peace and therefore not peaceful.  I disagree.  In any given year most of the earth is at peace.  In fact, well over 90% peaceful in the era of Pax Americana.


   My point is that there has been war EVERYWHERE literally countless times and EVERYWHERE there will be war again.  Until we finally wipe ourselves off of the planet. I very much prefer your point of view to mine.  It is a much more pleasant way to see things.  But I am a realist.


You are right RM that the capacity for violence is in all of us, but you also have to consider how much training is required even for professional soldiers before they are in a position where they are willing to commit violence against someone who is trying to kill them... and for a front line soldier, it is specifically their job to be violent.

Some people find it easier than others to be violent, and this can be conditioned into or out of a person too.  The caveat, which I think you are speaking about RM is this:  Even the most passive person can snap and fly into a rage if you push their buttons in all the wrong ways.  You don't have to be violent all the time.  You just need enough people to snap at the same time to have a really terrible situation.
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« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2021 at 12:53pm by NooneOfConsequence »  

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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