Joe, this is good stuff. I feel like it is some experimental archeology.

When you were just holding it normally and using 2 hands, you were starting to get the timing down and getting some power! You just need to start adding some fast full-body rotations and, 80m here Joe comes!!!

Nice!

Very good job, Joe !
I just want to clarify something. Beware of modern approaches. We always seek to maximise. The range, the weight, etc...
This throw will not throw big stones very far. And is it really necessary to throw huge stones with short range ?
Testing is absolutely necessary to understand but keep in mind :
1) the actual conditions of the war during the middle-age.
2) our modern desire to always beat records.

Thanks guys!

Yeah, I completely agree that a hammer throw or pirouette would be more powerful.  I've done some experimenting with pirouette (https://youtu.be/as5HMS_w5qA).  My accuracy is pretty terrible with it.  Honestly it never came to mind when I was doing this testing.  I'll give a whirl (pun intended) the next time I'm working with this some more.  We just got a bunch of snow, so it might be little while.


Morphy wrote on Feb 10^th, 2021 at 5:30am:

You're right on target.  There was some variation but they were between 3.75 and 4 lb.

And on your other point about adjusting sling length, etc., I definitely agree.  I think there is a lot more experimentation to do with a two-handed throw.  I'd love to see what others can do with this.


@TOMBELAINE - I'm not sure I agree that maximizing range, weight, etc. is a (strictly) modern approach.  It seems logical to me that since the initial use of any projectile weapon, it would have been recognized that there's an advantage to being able to hit the target with more force from farther away, while maintaining the needed accuracy.

On short vs. long range, can be more specific on what would qualify as long range?  I agreed that throwing such a heavy projectile does limit the range.  But I would be comfortable saying I was getting close to 25 m in the air with a sling and projectiles that were far from being efficiently tuned.  And that was with only an hour or so practice.  With a round projectile, a sling created to hold and release it well, and a refined technique, I don't see why this couldn't easily reach double that.

The drawing that brought this whole thing up shows armoured knights on horseback in front of the slinger.  I think large projectiles could be used to counter an oncoming charge once it was within range.

Yes, Joe. I'm agree with you.
Your experimentation is necessary and useful. Distance, weight and accuracy are good datas.
Now, I ask myself these following questions :
"If a knight in armour take a 500 grammes paver on the helmet, will be four times less hurt than if he take a 2 kilos paver ?"
"At 20/50 meters, can I miss a group of heavily armed riders, or a company of a hundred foot soldiers ?"
Now I repeat, your work is fundamental to know all the possibilities of the sling. That will need to be analyzed in context.

"I am shocked how much that helps." Frankly, me too. This is the sort of thing I hoped to see when I published the original articles, we can now say for certain that our picture is actually practical and not an artist exaggeration, especially since these chunks of ice are probably worse projectiles than actual rocks.

Accuracy seems to be... pretty good, actually, you don't really need anything better at the range you can send these out to, and these are clearly not precision weapons.

Effect on target, well, if you have the full armor ensemble, gambeson, chain mail, plate and another gambeson on top and heavy bascinet... it may not kill you, if you are lucky, but it will definitely break something - which, in the context of a fight, is just as good since you're out for the duration. And if you happen to not be rich enough to have the best armor, you'll have better luck dodging - which actually seems kinda possible if you are on foot, not on horse. I can't think of any way to test that, though, at least not any that doesn't involve copious amounts of alcohol and attempted murder charges.

@joe_meadmaker I don't suppose you have a way of measuring the speed of these? It would be interesting to plug that into some of the terminal ballistics and car crash test models, if only to see their limitations. From the video, it looks like 2-3 seconds of hang time per 23 paces, so probably less than 7-12 m/s. Assuming an even 10 and weight of 1.8 kg, it gives us a frightening momentum of 18 000 g.m/s, about twice that of a rifle, with a kinetic energy of not-so-impressive 90 J, about 40 times less than that of a rifle, but surprisingly close to a 160 lbs warbow (120 J).

For an idea on how those numbers look, the energy is so small it is equal to lifting 9 kg (18 lbs) one meter/yard. The momentum, on the other hand, is enough to propel the head of an adult (one tenth of total weight of 70 kg/140 lbs, a helmet roughly doubles that, but never mind that now) at almost 10 kmh/6 mph in an ideal collision.

It's also the only weapon short of a catapult that could maybe literally knock someone off a horse - not straight backwards, not in a medieval charging saddle, but deliver enough shock to make someone sort of slide off to the side, especially if the horse is running towards the shooter.

Melee hit looked about comparable to a halberd or a pollaxe (clocking in at ~2.5 kilos/5 pounds) - something that will definitely not kill you in heavy plate but absolutely will in anything short of that.

I think we can safely conclude the following:

1) The two handed style is a practical thing for slinging heavy rocks, not a figment of author's imagination

2) The hands apart method doesn't work that well and is either an artefact of the image, or a product of the image being of a slinger just after loading a projectile and before starting to actually sling it

3) The image in question probably shows a cavalry right after it flanked or busted through a position, because the rate of fire on these is far too slow to let them be anywhere in front and expect them to defeat a charge on their own - you will maybe get two shots against horses and three against infantry, probably only 1 and 2, respectively

4) The myth that it is a bad idea to get hit with one of these has been confirmed

joe_meadmaker wrote on Feb 12^th, 2021 at 5:19pm:


With the mechanical advantage of putting your entire body into the throw and how much extra energy you can put into a projectile that can cause some serious damage...I can't imagine that this wouldn't have been used (read: this MUST have been used) At least in something like defending a siege, or a similar event.