Can you tell I’m bored? LOL. Huge post incoming. Oh well.
JudoP- “I disagree somewhat here. Whilst it's not impossible that this would be the case I think that most things that are true will come out simply due to there being some sort of evidence.”
*I agree. So let me be a little more clear in defining what a secret is from the practical purpose of what a secret does. Let’s define it by looking at the end goal of a secret in the first place. I would suggest the end goal of any secret is to limit as much as possible blow back from actions or words that are conducted by those taking part by obscuring information in a variety of ways. We can define a secret as things that never get out but this is a definition that is too specific for the purposes of a secret itself. Therefore it’s more accurate to define a secret as I have above.
This concept people have a lot of hang ups on because they have been conditioned to believe that only through this one meaning does something qualify as a secret when in fact that is not how the intelligence communities looks at it.
And they are very smart to do so. Because it’s not the well accepted definition they care about, it’s the results. So secrets kept by too much info, too little info, lies mixed with truth or just plain lies all qualify as successful secrets in that sense so long as they obscure and limit blow back. I should’ve been more clear. While some secrets do remain secret, at least for the amount of time needed, I do agree that virtually all will come to light eventually.
But how long does a secret have to remain secret for it have been successful in it’s end goal? Forever? No, of course not. Again, going back to the purpose, however these goals are obtained it must remain either unbelieved or unable to effect any significant change or blow back long enough that people don’t care anymore. If it accomplishes that goal, even if it only remains secret for a little while, it accomplished it’s purpose. Whether it’s kept secret because no one knows it or because it’s well known but no one cares enough to do anything, which is where we get the term “open secret”, is irrelevant.
JudoP- “Whilst I'm sure there are maybe some cases like you describe I feel like they would be very outnumbered by plain old conspiracy theories.”
Certainly, but only because I can make up a sentence out of thin air far faster than that assertion can be proven or disproven. So that statement is true but only in the sense that it has to be true. There are no other possibilities.
The amount of conspiracies that have been soundly mocked but ended up being true is pretty impressive. So no, we can’t dispute your statement, but then again it’s not necessary to dispute.
If you are under the impression that true conspiracies are few and far between I will post a short list of only a few of the conspiracies that have been openly admitted to. Short in the sense that it doesn’t begin to touch even a small amount of the total.
JudoP- “I read about this strategy, it has become associated with one of Putin's advisors I think who I don't recall the name of. When there is suspicion on you instead of denying it flood the airwaves with alternative explanations until nobody can say anything for sure. It's very clever.”
And very effective. Generating apathy is much better than trying to keep a secret. Let the person keep the importance of the information from themselves and you don’t have to worry about monitoring every single person who knows that secret 24/7. Far more cost effective. Once apathy or disbelief sets in the general public will keep the minority in line for you. That’s just human nature.
JudoP- “Yes but you still found out about them from your granfather
”
*Sure, but I am unable to do anything with said information. If people believe anything I said, they wouldn’t care, if people care, not enough of them would care. See, those secrets were 100% effective. The military knows secrets can’t be kept forever, but they really don’t care. Because again that’s not the end goal. The end goal being to have an objective and to succeed in that objective with as little blow back as possible.*
JudoP- “More seriously, yes they are obviously very good at keeping secrets but I pushback a little on the mythology surrounding them. They are still people just like you and I, someone like Snowden used pretty much freely available tools to evade them (granted he is a very talented professional in the area). Everyone who has gone through a British university has seen the advertisements to apply for MI5/MI6, it's not too outlandish to believe me or one of my friends could have gotten a job there (though less James Bond, more computer jockey...).”
*Agreed again. They are far from perfect and they screw up all the time. We as a society simply give them an endless amount of chances to do it again.*
JudoP- “Ok, but I wouldn't consider this a conspiracy theory particularly. It's actually confirmed as existing. Some of the alleged targets are a bit farfetched though to say the least, and other factors could make the gun less effective than it's cracked up to being- e.g. you aren't going to get much range at all on a tiny dart that barely leaves a mark, perhaps the poison isn't as untraceable as it's cracked up to being (Novichok was meant to be untraceable but has been traced quite a few times).”Fair enough this right here is arguably the most important part of the conversation. So the stated effective range is less important but just to get that out of the way it was 100 meters I believe. Pretty darn far when you think about it. Also, poisons do exist that are almost impossible to trace so that’s not necessarily something I would even worry about.
*People often say that if a conspiracy is proven it’s not a conspiracy and if it is a true conspiracy it can’t be proven. Therefore there is no evidence and we can dismiss the idea. This is circular logic, nothing more. And I’m not accusing you here of espousing this theory on a personal level, it’s simply a sentiment that is repeated enough in our Western society to make it a common response to such a conversation regardless of how intelligent the person is. We are all guilty of such pat answers. It’s just a fact of being human.
Now we can’t prove a negative but we can do is look historically and see if any theories were roundly scorned and then proven to be true. There are plenty. Therefore we know that at least for as long as necessary for the purposes to be accomplished it is possible. This is one case where the present day info forces you to prove a negative but the historical info proves it as true. So it’s very helpful to know of these cases.*
JudoP- “Also I would add that there has always been conventional poisoning, which may even be more practical in many situations. There's also setting up suicides, drug overdoses, framing others etc. “
*You bet, there’s tons of ways to go about it.*
JudoP- “Well, for sure. Snowden is not in hiding particularly, and he unmasked himself, however there is zero incentive for them to silence him at this point.”
*Either because the blow back would be too severe or because, and I personally favor this second idea, because he is Cointelpro.*
JudoP- “Also, the US are not saints but they are not Russia, they don't infiltrate other states to execute defectors or even just critics to sew terror (Russia has done this in the UK many times and usually in a less dramatic way than using high tech nerve agents). Perhaps the CIA would kill to protect their interests and the state, but not just for the hell of it and consequences be damned. The blowback from such executions would be very bad for them, whilst in Russia Putin's popularity is unaffected by such things.”
*See the list below. I do agree with the sentiment that they don’t do things for the hell of it, consequences be damned.*
JudoP- “Again it's hard to know without being in the room how close this was to realistically happening. In the history of government it would surprise me if the possibility hadn't been at least mentioned by someone but that doesn't convince me that it was ever close to happening. As for 9/11 I simply think it's unfeasible to fake, and unfeasible for the pretty much anyone in the US state to seriously consider on a moral/duty basis and completely devoid of motive.”
*Relevant documents have been released. This plan was fleshed out enough to put on paper and gain the signatures of the highest offices in the Executive Branch besides the President Himself. Once that last signature was obtained the document says planning stages would begin.*
JudoP- “Again why the vaccine? There's nothing mystical about it. Why didn't they just put it in food, or drugs, or a previous vaccine even? What sort of thing would they put in that has a persistent and desired effect which outweighs the massive disruption? How would they do this without detection? Such claims always seem to ignore the practicalities of things and barely even consider motivation. The objective is not to have a cool movie script it's to ascertain what is actually happening.”
*Because there is nothing in the vaccine. I agree, it’s bogus.*
JudoP- “No I appreciate the pushback and different views, conversation is good and useful
”
*As do I, always, because you are an intelligent and worthy debater lol and more importantly never once mentioned Hitler or Age of Empires. It’s amazing how cordial a healthy debate can remain when you don’t start it off attacking people’s intelligence. Of course, I never expected that from you, nor would I ever.*
For the following list, keep in mind personal beliefs do not change whether a conspiracy did exist or not. Whether it was justified is irrelevant since we are specifically talking about successful, admitted conspiracies.
List of verified conspiracies-
1. CIA attempt to assassinate Castro
2. Watergate
3. Gulf of Tonkin
4. Mkultra
5. Bohemian Grove being a meeting of the world elite complete with rituals
6. Bayer pharmaceutical company spreading aids through a blood clotting medicine. Rather than take it all off the market it was simply sold in Asian and Latin America.
7. Incubator babies thrown on the floor testimony was instrumental in swaying public opinion to engage in the Gulf war. The 15 year old “witness” was later proven false and the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador.
8. Tuskegee Syphilis experiments- injecting unsuspecting black people with syphilis and purposefully not curing it to watch the progression of the disease in humans.
9. Radioactive iodine experiments injected into pregnant women and newborns to observe the effects
10. Plutonium injections into unsuspecting individuals which led to cancer and death.
11. Vanderbilt University which gave 829 unsuspecting pregnant women radioactive substances referred to as “vitamin drinks” to observe the effects on the women and children.
12. University of California in SF exposed rheumatoid arthritis patients to radiation without their knowledge to obtain data for the military.
13. The Walter E. Fernald State School in Mass. Gave 73 mentally disabled children oatmeal mixed with radioactive calcium and other radioactive isotopes in order to track how they were digested.
14. Department of Defense performing non-consensual whole body radiation tests on poor and black cancer patients.
15. Chemical Warfare Service exposes thousands of US military personnel to mustard gas.
16. Army personnel given nerve agents and mustard gas against their will and not informed of the danger.
17. The Holmesburg program. DOW chemical company injected dioxin into 70 prisoners to study the health effects.
18. Professional tennis player Harold Blauer injected with a mescaline derivative by the New York State Psychiatric Institute working in collusion with the DOD and the New York State AG to conceal this evidence.
19. US Army funds Robert Heath of Tulane University to perform experiments on 42 psych patients and prisoners. They were injected with mind altering drugs, had implanted electrodes in their brain etc.
20. Army paid 386, 486 to professors to perform experiments with mind-altering drugs on 320 inmates. Although long term health problems were denied this was later found to be false.
21. “Monster Study”
22. Diethylstilbestrol experiments on pregnant women at Lying-In Hospital of the University of Chicago leading to increased miscarriages. None of the victims were told they were part of an experiment.
23. Operation Northwoods- the aforementioned plan to carry out false flag terrorist attacks on Americans to push the public into war with Cuba. The plan was signed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff. It was then signed by Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Depart of Defense but was never implemented due to Kennedy’s rejection of it. In the memorandum it says once the signatures are obtained, planning phases will begin.
24. Project Sunshine
25. Operation Sea-Spray
26. Big Tobacco buried evidence of the dangers of cigarettes and paid off doctors to promote them.
27. 50 times the acceptable dose of radioactive phosporus-32 injected into patients with severe burns.
28. 22 elderly patients injected with live cancer cells by Chester M. Southam who had previously done the same to prisoners in the Ohio State Prison. Hospital administration covered it up but eventually it was discovered.
29. Project Shipboard Hazard and Defense – US Army sprayed several US ships with various biological and chemical warfare agents filled with thousands of US military personnel. They were not notified before hand and no protective clothing was given.
30. US Army released Bacillus globigii into tunnels of the New York City Subway in a study to discover the vulnerability of subway passengers to covert attacks.
This is only a very small fraction of admitted/proven acts that at one time were secretly done and are now mostly ignored by the general populace as “something that happened sometime” usually with the mistaken belief that “it could happen then, but not now.” I could spend the next month documenting all of them that have been admitted but this subject is too large, nor do I have any desire whatsoever to do that lol. Anyways, I don’t expect you to read all this but in case you made it to the end. Congrats, you must be almost as bored as I. Lol.
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