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The trick to a good sling (Read 8878 times)
AncientCraftwork
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The trick to a good sling
Jan 19th, 2021 at 5:30pm
 
Seems to be a tight braid or twist, as tight as we can get it. An experiment made it very obvious to me. I made a sling simply from the outher shell of paracord, with the core taken out.

This limp outer shell is not tight, it's floppy and twisty, even a short sling made just with the outher paracord shell, and even utilizing the widest grip as possible, the sling is still unstable and twisty, even with lightweight ammo. Useless

So the trick to a good sling, whether that sling is thick or thin, is the tightness of the braid. The paracord with the core inside is stiffer, hence it works better.

If I leave my braided slings outdoors, they stiffen up, and if they are indoors, they become loose. If I am to braid my slings in the cold and winter, their braid should be tighter by default than if I were to braid them in the warm indoors or summer.


I know I am not stating new information, but this is rather a reminder, braid as tight as you can, don't neglect it
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All Glory to God forever and ever, amen
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #1 - Jan 19th, 2021 at 8:41pm
 
I don’t know J.  The sling works on tension.  The stiffness may have a small effect on lag angle and release timing but so does pouch shape, ammo, and style. I don’t think it can be boiled down to cord stiffness... unless “good” is defined as a sling you just like. If stiffness elicits a positive visceral reaction for you and that’s your definition of good, then I can’t say you are wrong, but other people may have a different opinion.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Morphy
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #2 - Jan 19th, 2021 at 9:13pm
 
AncientCraftwork wrote on Jan 19th, 2021 at 5:30pm:
Seems to be a tight braid or twist, as tight as we can get it. An experiment made it very obvious to me. I made a sling simply from the outher shell of paracord, with the core taken out.

This limp outer shell is not tight, it's floppy and twisty, even a short sling made just with the outher paracord shell, and even utilizing the widest grip as possible, the sling is still unstable and twisty, even with lightweight ammo. Useless

So the trick to a good sling, whether that sling is thick or thin, is the tightness of the braid. The paracord with the core inside is stiffer, hence it works better.

If I leave my braided slings outdoors, they stiffen up, and if they are indoors, they become loose. If I am to braid my slings in the cold and winter, their braid should be tighter by default than if I were to braid them in the warm indoors or summer.


I know I am not stating new information, but this is rather a reminder, braid as tight as you can, don't neglect it


I agree with NOOC. Actually some of my most accurate slings have been with very limp, supple cordage. The first questions I would ask when coming up with a new theory is:
What specific claim am I making. Be as specific as possible. Ex. This will increase my accuracy. Then test over a period of several weeks before making a decision. 

The reason for such a long testing time is something that tends to happen in many weapons. When you get a new bow or sling suddenly you’re shooting better than ever before. Same thing happens often when trying new techniques.

Then over time there is a regression to the mean. Usually what this is, is an increased conscious concentration thats causing you to focus more than otherwise. As your body/mind get used to it similar bad habits creep in or you lose the initial fascination with the new weapon and hence the regression. This happens a lot.
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joe_meadmaker
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #3 - Jan 19th, 2021 at 9:47pm
 
I agree that a tight braid is preferable to a loose one.  A loose braid can have a lot of movement between the cords.  I've definitely had this happen with some of my braids and the sling ends up feeling like it has a lot of stretch.

I'm curious about paracord with the core removed.  I'm cutting out a pouch right now.  Hopefully give it a test in the morning.
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Rat Man
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #4 - Jan 19th, 2021 at 10:06pm
 
joe_meadmaker wrote on Jan 19th, 2021 at 9:47pm:
I agree that a tight braid is preferable to a loose one.  A loose braid can have a lot of movement between the cords.  I've definitely had this happen with some of my braids and the sling ends up feeling like it has a lot of stretch.

I'm curious about paracord with the core removed.  I'm cutting out a pouch right now.  Hopefully give it a test in the morning.


    A while back RJB sent me a sling made of gutted paracord.  I liked it a lot.
    I prefer a tightly braided sling. 
    One trick to a good sling for me is making the pouch elongated and tapered.  I like the extra spin you get.
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AncientCraftwork
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #5 - Jan 20th, 2021 at 3:50am
 
bNooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 19th, 2021 at 8:41pm:
I don’t know J.  The sling works on tension.  The stiffness may have a small effect on lag angle and release timing but so does pouch shape, ammo, and style. I don’t think it can be boiled down to cord stiffness... unless “good” is defined as a sling you just like. If stiffness elicits a positive visceral reaction for you and that’s your definition of good, then I can’t say you are wrong, but other people may have a different opinion.


It's about how quick the pouch turns to the turning of your wrist. If it is instantly or nearly instantly, it is very good. This means you have control over the angle of release, and allows consistency in the release, and consistency in spiralling. If that's not what makes a ''good sling'' than I would say you are sling relativist, I guess.  Cheesy

The single cord-outer mantle sling has a huge lag in the pouch when I turn my wrist, even with light ammo, and short cords. It just wants to twist around itself, even with the widest grip. I don't use real paracord for this experiment, so your results may differ. but the principle is the same, the outer mantle alone has lost its tightness without the core. But maybe real paracord outer mantle is still stiff enough to provide enough control, but I doubt it.
This means consistent releases are impossible, the sling becomes very unpredictable, will it give a top spin, spiral spin, side spin, etc, you no longer have control. it's useless. Again, if you are a beginner slinger that hasn't learned pouch angle control yet, or only sling perfect ice spheres, this may be less noticeable or important. But if you sling point first biconicals most of the time, you notice it immediately if you cant control the pouch angle.

The way to regain control over the pouch angle is by stiffening the sling up. Possible through various methods. In case with a single cord paracord sling, using cord with a core helps. Traditionally the way has been to braid the tightest as we can. This helps. Other ways include very tight whipping on parts of the sling. A sling that is both light yet tight is the best.
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David Morningstar
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #6 - Jan 20th, 2021 at 6:52am
 
A way to test this would be to film a sling of each extreme in slow motion as it is spun with a weight in the pouch, this will reveal any difference in their behaviour.
Depending what mobile phone you have, this might be very easy to do. My old camera that I did my early slo mo videos with has been far surpassed by modern phones.

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Morphy
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #7 - Jan 20th, 2021 at 6:53am
 
David Morningstar wrote on Jan 20th, 2021 at 6:52am:
A way to test this would be to film a sling of each extreme in slo motion as it is spun with a weight in the pouch, this will reveal any difference in the behaviour.


+1. Testing is key.
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #8 - Jan 20th, 2021 at 9:14am
 
Morphy wrote on Jan 20th, 2021 at 6:53am:
David Morningstar wrote on Jan 20th, 2021 at 6:52am:
A way to test this would be to film a sling of each extreme in slo motion as it is spun with a weight in the pouch, this will reveal any difference in the behaviour.


+1. Testing is key.


+2  I am open to believing that minor twisting of the cords affects the trajectory of the ammo. 

Let’s be more precise than “good” though in describing the effect. It could affect consistency (precision) and/or energy transfer to the ammo... and the of course you have to determine “how” those elements are affected. For example, is the effect more prominent with oblong ammo and a split pouch than spherical ammo and a Y sling?  Then the rotation probably affects accuracy via the Magnus effect and changing the direction of spin... whereby the floppy string theory has a greater impact on external ballistics than internal ballistics and pouch dynamics.  There’s a lot of things to investigate before I am willing to believe that stiff cords are universally better than floppies. 

The difficult thing is removing variability of the slinger from the equation. If only we had some sort of automated sling throwing device... like a robotic slinger of sorts...
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #9 - Jan 20th, 2021 at 9:29am
 
Here’s another test J:
Try stiff and floppy cords on a staff sling where twist should be nonexistent and let’s see if there are other differences between the two.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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David Morningstar
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #10 - Jan 20th, 2021 at 10:23am
 
Ages ago I did slo mo of different slinging styles, and one of the takeaways was that the helicopter style rolls the pouch over just as it comes up to the release point and this can lead to wildly different releases:

https://youtu.be/wY-EHvtjhAY (rolling motion of pouch as it spins around)

Three different results from a sequence of helicopter style throws:

https://youtu.be/PvidIcGUXkQ (perfect point first release of glande)

https://youtu.be/uDTO1VYoMXw (vertical orientation release)

https://youtu.be/EJjFK68mn0w (release cord fouls the shot)

I dont think it is any coincidence that Balearic slingers by a great majority use a sidearm throw that very reliably places the cords above each other at the moment of release:

https://youtu.be/396YywA4h3c (use space bar to stop playback then , and . to advance frame by frame)

https://youtu.be/396YywA4h3c (super clean release visible here)

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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #11 - Jan 20th, 2021 at 10:52am
 
Interesting. I’ve seen these before but I wasn’t looking at technical details of the motion.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Archaic Arms
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #12 - Jan 20th, 2021 at 2:41pm
 
One thing is for certain, cords that have no twist resistance are very difficult to control. I did a lot of experimentation several months ago trying to gain the same amount of consistency with thin, reverse twisted cords as my Balearic-style slings. I found it troubling how much more difficult it was to be accurate.
The question is to what extent should cords be twist resistant?  I personally think they should be as much as you can practically achieve. Naturally, the tighter the braid (and the more strands you use) the more twist resistant it will be. I don't think pouch control is hugely important if you only throw projectiles the same shape and weight i.e tennis balls, but it is when throwing random stones. Under such circumstances, one makes all sorts of subconscious adjustments in order to get the stone to go in the direction of the target, and having a sling that is responsive to the slinger makes the whole job easier.
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« Last Edit: Jan 22nd, 2021 at 4:35am by Archaic Arms »  

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Lewis
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Morphy
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #13 - Jan 20th, 2021 at 7:05pm
 
I have a old phone cord that's braided kern mantle over wires. It's cord like but quite stiff and there is  virtually no twist in it compared to normal cordage. I'll be using it to make my trash sling two days from now as well as concrete ammo for consistent throwing and test it out against a control sling with gutted paracord and non-gutted paracord.

I'm super rusty but it won't matter since all slings will be used by me. I'll get back to you with hard results as soon as I can.
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AncientCraftwork
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Re: The trick to a good sling
Reply #14 - Jan 21st, 2021 at 5:22am
 
What's correct guys? For the tightest sling, braid it in a warm or cold environment?
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All Glory to God forever and ever, amen
 
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