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Done with politics? (Read 4950 times)
IronGoober
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #195 - Feb 6th, 2021 at 3:45pm
 
perpetualstudent wrote on Feb 6th, 2021 at 3:40pm:
The facts didn't matter only the feelings of the mob.


This is indeed a problem. But I'd say the biggest problem is that the right feels like the left is the mob that doesn't believe in facts and the left thinks the right is the mob that doesn't believe in facts.  There seem to be two mobs depending on perspective.  It would be nice if we could agree on what the facts are.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #196 - Feb 6th, 2021 at 3:56pm
 
Even if we agreed on facts nothing necessarily follows from that. Processes are more important.

When we have no process that we can trust we are in trouble. Trump's criticism of an unfair election was bigger but it was in the same vein as the previous election criticisms: unfair system, hacked by the Russians, and thus illegitimate.

The importance of legitimacy, and each side convincing their side to play by the rules, is hard to overstate. But both sides have been playing on the edges whenever they think they can get away wtih it. And as you rightly point out, we mainly see "their" transgressions. There's a very clear escalation in the fight between the tribes. I wish I saw an off ramp.
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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IronGoober
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #197 - Feb 6th, 2021 at 4:11pm
 
I'm with you on that. Having a lack of faith in the process is a big problem. Agreed, whether it was the 2016 or 2020 election, both sides had doubts in how the outcome was arrived at. At least some there is some common ground there that a solution could be worked towards.
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John R.
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #198 - Feb 6th, 2021 at 4:17pm
 
IronGoober wrote on Feb 6th, 2021 at 3:45pm:
perpetualstudent wrote on Feb 6th, 2021 at 3:40pm:
The facts didn't matter only the feelings of the mob.


This is indeed a problem. But I'd say the biggest problem is that the right feels like the left is the mob that doesn't believe in facts and the left thinks the right is the mob that doesn't believe in facts.† There seem to be two mobs depending on perspective.† It would be nice if we could agree on what the facts are.


Common facts come more easily from common values. I love my country. Itís not perfect, but itís my country. I couldnít create a better system than what our founders did. Iím not that smart.† If you look at the official platform for the Democratic Party, the left appears to hate this country and believes it needs to be completely torn down and reimagined. If you want to stick to the original design, you are labeled a racist and an extremist. If we canít come together on something as simple as loving the country we live in... how do we find middle ground on anything else?† Whatís the compromise when one side insists on destroying a system and the other side wants to preserve it? Democrats and Republicans used to actually agree on a lot more than we do now, and Democrats of 30 years ago would be labeled as dangerous, extreme right-wingers today simply for being patriotic. Patriotism on the left was replaced with reveling in the self flagellation of white privilege... which they love to complain about and virtue signal over but somehow the left never seems to offer any solutions that arenít even worse than the problem...

On the other side, climate change is an existential threat, and those who are trying to preserve the American system of the past are perpetuating a system that will doom the entire world if drastic action isnít taken. Destroying the old system is necessary for survival. Again, where is the compromise?

Without some common set of values for us to agree on... how do we remain one nation?† Itís an open question that I donít know how to answer., and I find that both sad and terrifying... more for my children than myself.
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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IronGoober
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #199 - Feb 6th, 2021 at 6:30pm
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 6th, 2021 at 4:17pm:
If you look at the official platform for the Democratic Party, the left appears to hate this country and believes it needs to be completely torn down and reimagined.


Hate? No. Think there is room for improvement? Hell yes. I'm going to tackle a single theme here, though I'm sure there is more depth to your statement than I'm going to address. I'm going to assume that you are referring to the general sense that Democrats feel the need to regulate much more than Republicans (again trying to encompass a lot of scope here in a single statement) and that it is infringing upon freedom. But my argument about freedom is that the vast freedom(s) that we enjoy in the US are only useful if people use that freedom to improve the condition of not only themselves, but the people around them. Often, that is not the case.  Rich getting richer (can't say that this isn't happening to me, I've had zero financial trouble during COVID, and Trump's tax cuts reduced my taxes, despite the fact that I'm willing and wishing to pay more taxes), racism, ethnic and economic inequalities, unequal access to healthcare, etc.  These are things that could be improved, but are often taken advantage of in the name of "freedom".  That is my sense of being a Democrat. I do love my country. But, I don't think that we are the be-all end-all.

I also don't think that the founding father's or the constitution are infallible. They were men, like you or me. Treating the constitution as essentially the word of God (I know this is an exaggeration, I'm not accusing anyone of truly thinking this, I'm just venting frustration about this argument) is a dangerous thing. That is why there are amendments to the US constitution and a supreme court. To evolve our understanding, improve our country and not be stuck in the past.

... I think I'll end here before I dig myself too deep. I'll probably look back at this post later and think of all the ways I could have worded things better or other things I should have said. But, I have to say, the statement that Democrats "hate this country" really irks me.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #200 - Feb 6th, 2021 at 8:03pm
 
Truth is nobody wants to mess too much with constitutional amendments because neither side can muster enough power. I would much prefer that sort of battle to take place, hell we banned alcohol via that process (it was a dismal failure but at least it was legitimate).

I do think you're a little off base Iron. I don't see an argument about regulation coming from the left. I see arguments about "systemic" things and "fundamental re-imaginings". And I hear plenty of chatter about anything less being just a tool of distraction.

We as a nation are not discussing proposals. What I am getting from the left is a demand to accede to a moral claim. Not "if we implement this policy we can make life better" but "Unless we institute system wide reform you are supporting evil". That's how NOOC can get to "democrats hate America". It's from their own propoganda.
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #201 - Feb 6th, 2021 at 9:35pm
 
@IG, youíre right. Itís too harsh to say half the country hates the country. The rhetoric is not accurate for the sentiment I am trying to express, so I take it back. There does seem to be a drive to fundamentally change the systems of this country though even if it isnít out of ďhatredĒ per se.† That is what seems to be irreconcilable. We canít even agree on ďone nation under GodĒ anymore and the two sides are drifting further apart every day.

I also understand that the Democratic platform doesnít necessarily reflect the beliefs of individual Democrats...† just like the Republican platform doesnít reflect all Republicans. I honestly think that a lot of people who vote Democrat would be shocked by some of the things in the Democratic platform though if they read it.

Just look at all the pipeline unions who now regret voting for Biden.
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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IronGoober
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #202 - Feb 6th, 2021 at 10:10pm
 
perpetualstudent wrote on Feb 6th, 2021 at 8:03pm:
I do think you're a little off base Iron. I don't see an argument about regulation coming from the left. I see arguments about "systemic" things and "fundamental re-imaginings". And I hear plenty of chatter about anything less being just a tool of distraction.


Perhaps you are correct. These are my own thoughts, which certainly do not necessarily reflect the views of the whole of the Democratic party. But as far as they hate America... I'd say no.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 6th, 2021 at 9:35pm:
I also understand that the Democratic platform doesnít necessarily reflect the beliefs of individual Democrats...† just like the Republican platform doesnít reflect all Republicans. I honestly think that a lot of people who vote Democrat would be shocked by some of the things in the Democratic platform though if they read it.


True.  As for the last bit. I could only speak for myself. I suppose I should just put that disclaimer in front of political statements. Smiley
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John R.
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #203 - Feb 6th, 2021 at 10:11pm
 
BTW, I found the video that YouTube took down while I was watching it... itís interesting. Donít get me wrong... Biden is the president. I am not suggesting otherwise by posting a video about election fraud, but this video shouldnít be suppressed, and I think itís worth discussing how absolutely strange this last election really was. People should be free to hear all sides of an issue and make their own decisions. Iíd probably get banned for saying such things if this was Twitter Smiley

https://lbry.tv/@PastorShadilay:a/AbsoluteProof:9
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Morphy
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #204 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 12:28am
 
I think I can finally give a definitive answer to the original question. I am done with politics.
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"I think this guy is the king of trolls of the forum, he waited 16 years just to say this. please pay your respects in an orderly fashion."-Sarosh
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #205 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 8:56am
 
Morphy wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 12:28am:
I think I can finally give a definitive answer to the original question. I am done with politics.


Weíve heard that before Morphy. It can actually be fun if people donít take it too personally... I mean AFTER you come to grips with the fact that Republicans are greedy racist Nazis who want to destroy the planet and Democrats are weak-minded angry fascists who are still living in their parents basement and want to mooch off of society.  After you accept that, itís easy to have a civil discussion Grin
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Morphy
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Checkmate

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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #206 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 9:59am
 
What if I dont want to? What if my heart is simply set on trolling? Is that an option?
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"I think this guy is the king of trolls of the forum, he waited 16 years just to say this. please pay your respects in an orderly fashion."-Sarosh
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #207 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:33am
 
Morphy wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 9:59am:
What if I dont want to? What if my heart is simply set on trolling? Is that an option?


You donít need my permission.  Can I join you?
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Morphy
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #208 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 3:55pm
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:33am:
Morphy wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 9:59am:
What if I dont want to? What if my heart is simply set on trolling? Is that an option?


You donít need my permission.† Can I join you?


I thought you already had...  Wink
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"I think this guy is the king of trolls of the forum, he waited 16 years just to say this. please pay your respects in an orderly fashion."-Sarosh
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Done with politics?
Reply #209 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 4:19pm
 
I might be trolling just a little.  Some parents donít own basements Grin
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ďMy final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!† Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!ď† -Jesus the Noodler
 
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