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Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts (Read 15857 times)
Slyngorm
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #75 - Jul 1st, 2021 at 4:52pm
 
Good that you remind me CA.

I am gonna do that soon. Maybe as the next release.
Read up on them a bit and will focus on the most older types. Like those powered by handpumps and built-in-pumps.


Also, the re-release of my previous charts will follow the same formula as my bow/crossbow chart as:

Sling weapons
  • sling
  • staff sling
  • shotgun sling
  • kestrosphendone



Spear and related
  • spear
  • amentum


Modern weapons
  • arquebus
  • airgun
  • slingshot



Other weapons
  • blowgun
  • atlatl
  • bola
  • Morphy's semisling



I wanted to place the atlatl in the Spear and Related category until I realized that atlatls don't actually throw spears.
Might grade some kind of flintlock gun but it is a more complex term than I knew.

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czechslinger1.0
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #76 - Jul 1st, 2021 at 5:00pm
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Jul 1st, 2021 at 3:43pm:
Have you looked at airguns yet ?

One of the things I remember from the gun museum in the Buffalo bill centre in cody, wyoming, was the collection of air guns they had - dating back to the napoleonic wars.
Yes really.
In napoleons time air guns were actually a snipers weapon. They were .50 calibre and compared to a black powder gun - silent and with no huge plume of smoke to give you away.

No idea on the range, but pretty sure they had rifled barrels.

I'll have to dig put the pictures.

But until that point, I had no idea that serious airguns went back that far and were actually used in serious combat.

From what i read the first airguns date back to 1500's, this was also very surprising to me when I found out about this, I always thought airguns were invention of mid to late 1800's with the advancing industrial revolution.

Edit: I meant to say 19th century but wrote 1900's
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« Last Edit: Jul 2nd, 2021 at 2:57am by czechslinger1.0 »  
 
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czechslinger1.0
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #77 - Jul 1st, 2021 at 5:04pm
 
AncientCraftwork wrote on Jul 1st, 2021 at 4:43pm:
Here in the Netherlands, we have no real restrictions on air guns, you only have to be 18 +, and you can own a .50  whistle
there are some real nice magazine fed 9 mm air guns for sale here as well.

https://www.shogun.nl/airforce-texan-cf-45.html
1016 Joule kinetic energy


Here in czechia you can have max 16J airgun before you need a licence, but you still have to be 18+
I find it funny how I always exceed that by far with just string and stones Cheesy
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Slyngorm
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #78 - Jul 2nd, 2021 at 4:01am
 
AncientCraftwork wrote on Jul 1st, 2021 at 4:43pm:
Here in the Netherlands, we have no real restrictions on air guns, you only have to be 18 +, and you can own a .50  whistle
there are some real nice magazine fed 9 mm air guns for sale here as well.

https://www.shogun.nl/airforce-texan-cf-45.html
1016 Joule kinetic energy


woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
That's a big and powerful airgun.

I have one of those that you 'crack up' in the middle to load it.
If there was a gap in ease of use and accuracy from using a sling to a pellet bow then that gap only amplifies when moving to an airgun. Such a weird feeling to take aim at a target, not having used the gun for years, and then hit 5 centimetres besides the centre of your target 20 meters away.

One can really feel why primitive weapons are primitive and got beaten to the dust by firearms.  Undecided



czechslinger1.0 wrote on Jul 1st, 2021 at 5:00pm:
this was also very surprising to me when I found out about this

same


czechslinger1.0 wrote on Jul 1st, 2021 at 5:04pm:
Here in czechia you can have max 16J airgun before you need a licence, but you still have to be 18+
I find it funny how I always exceed that by far with just string and stones

Don't you have really lax firearm laws?
Here in [undisclosed northern European country] you can own a 4,5 mm, 25 J airgun without any restrictions if you are 18+.

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Slyngorm
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #79 - Jul 4th, 2021 at 5:56am
 
A serving of modern weapon gradings
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Slyngorm
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #80 - Dec 21st, 2021 at 5:25pm
 
Alright, chose to cut the kestros and shotgun out.
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Slyngorm
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #81 - Apr 16th, 2022 at 5:39pm
 
Time for the first full release  Cool


...
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Morphy
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #82 - Apr 17th, 2022 at 4:23pm
 
This thread is absolute porn for the primitive weapon enthusiast.

Look at all those throwing sticks. And that bola is crazy long. Shocked
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Slyngorm
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #83 - Nov 28th, 2022 at 3:15pm
 
Now here is a throwback.
When I first had the idea of making these charts, my first thought was making such little diagrams
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #84 - May 28th, 2023 at 10:43am
 
Truthfully you cannot "grade" the effectiveness of ranged primitive weapons.  Too many variables.  Plus, the effectiveness of ALL of them depend on the expertise of the  user, not on anything inherently accurate about the weapon itself.
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #85 - May 29th, 2023 at 1:41pm
 
I agree that grading weapons against each other is difficult.  But I think it can be done as long as you're looking at a specific metric and how they all compare for that metric.  Looking at "overall" grades that take multiple factors into account will be less helpful when comparing different weapons against each other.

Regarding accuracy, I think when most people are talking about the accuracy of a weapon, what they're really taking about is effective range.  And the effective range of different weapons can absolutely be different, with some being better than others.
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #86 - May 30th, 2023 at 3:21pm
 
The old Master Gunsmith Parker Ackley taught me that the  'effective range' of a weapon is the distance at which the projectile delivers all of its energy into the chosen target without passing through and 'wasting' energy into the air or ground around the target.

Accuracy, on the other hand is the ability to hit a specified target (not the thing next to, in front of, or behind the target), on demand (or at least 90% of the time), as close to said target's center-of-mass as possible. 

The overall effectiveness of a weapon is the combination of those two things, performed repeatedly by more than 75% of the users.
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #87 - May 30th, 2023 at 5:10pm
 
I think your definitions are perfectly fine.  But if someone talks about the accuracy of a weapon, obviously we want to remove the human element from the equation as much as possible.

Here's an extreme example (just to make things simple).  Let's say that we're going to put a sling up against a modern hunting rifle with a scope.  To make sure both weapons are being used at a level as equal as possible, we'll categorize the user of each weapon as an expert with it.  The person with the rifle will likely be able to hit a target that's several hundred yards away with regularity (if not every time).  Even with an expert slinger, the number of hits on target at that distance will be significantly lower, because of the nature of the weapon.

When comparing the accuracy of two weapons, I think it's fair to assume that the users of each weapon are at an equivalent proficiency level.  Then the other aspects of the weapon can be examined.  Such as how much human error (even for an expert user) comes into play for a weapon (example: a sling vs. a firearm), how much error does the weapon inherently introduce that will affect accuracy (example: a muzzleloader vs. a bolt-action rifle).

I promise I'm not trying to redefine any terms.  Wink
I just think my description above is what people are usually referring to when they talk about the accuracy of a weapon, as opposed to how accurate a person is with it.
Maybe a better phrasing for 'weapon accuracy' would be 'how much do the inherent characteristics of the weapon help the user not miss'.  Grin
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #88 - May 31st, 2023 at 11:09am
 
So true -- weapon accuracy and the human element are two different things.  True weapon accuracy can only be tested using  using a mechanical "human" as  it were.  With firearms there are many mechanical mechanisms which hold the weapon on target and absorb the recoil when it fires (I've done a lot of that sort of firearm testing over the years).  The same thing can certainly be made for slings -- essentially a small trebuchet. 

To me, the definition of "weapon effectiveness" is that combination of human (average or master) and weapon.   I've done a lot of that sort of firearm testing as well, being the "experienced average shooter" with a bench rest and ammo to burn...
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Re: Grading ranged weapons survivalist' charts
Reply #89 - May 31st, 2023 at 11:45am
 
I would just like to clarify the definition of the meaning of precision.
Accuracy isn't a value in itself. It depends on the situation. A sling is as accurate as a riffle when it comes to shooting at a group of assailants. The target isn't a particular person but anyone in front of you.
In my opinion, it might be better to investigate in what situation such a weapon can be used and why to.
In anycase, Slyngorm did a very big job.
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