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Natural cords material experimentation (Read 2926 times)
Rat Man
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #15 - Mar 18th, 2020 at 4:20pm
 
   I have many slings made of paracord, regular nylon, polypropylene, etc...  I like synthetic slings a lot.Though synthetics will outlast slings made of natural fibers, there is something about the feel of a jute sling.  I'll always have and use them.
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Morphy
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #16 - Mar 18th, 2020 at 4:45pm
 
I use to be worried about paracord stretching, but itís rated at 550lbs so the force exerted on those two cords during the throw is very small and the stretch probably is as well. Iíve never noticed stretch on my paracord slings but I suppose itís possible.

@Jauke - You bring up a good point and itís something Iíve thought about a lot in weapon design. Anytime a person is getting into making weapons thereís always two paths to take- Efficacy or Aesthetics. Part of the fun of designing these primitive weapons is trying to make both of those a reality in the same weapon.

Iím like you, I look at the Balearic slings and marvel at their beauty but I just canít get into them. Too bulky for me. Paracord or some natural equivalent all the way.
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JudoP
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #17 - Mar 18th, 2020 at 5:30pm
 
Personally I've not experienced any significant stretch from paracord (maybe a little bit that sneaks in during peak forces). It does seem pretty stretch free at slinging force levels though.

I've used other nylon (masons line) which was genuinely stretchy so it has the potential. I think these things come down to construction of the particular cord in many cases.

In terms of natural material thinner cords especially may experience a small degree of stretch, but usually most materials feel inelastic. Water treating or loose braiding can increase flexibility but bring a degree of stretchiness. I always aim for a moderately flexible cord which has as little stretch as possible and solid abrasion resistance with no 'springyness'. That's how I arrived at twice soaked sisal fibre as my currently preferred material.
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JudoP
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #18 - Mar 18th, 2020 at 6:11pm
 
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1172017416/5700#5705

Here is the current progress on the abaca sling and the linen rockman. I decided not to post here and keep this as more of a discussion of the cord properties themselves.
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Sarosh
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #19 - Mar 18th, 2020 at 6:21pm
 
J wrote on Mar 18th, 2020 at 3:30pm:
You'd have to braid extremely tight not to get any elasticity in natural braided cords, though

elasticity is a physical property of the fiber , plant fibers generally are not elastic, animal fibers generally are , synthetic fibers can be both. I am not talking about braid tightness

Morphy wrote on Mar 18th, 2020 at 4:45pm:
I use to be worried about paracord stretching, but itís rated at 550lbs so the force exerted on those two cords during the throw is very small and the stretch probably is as well. Iíve never noticed stretch on my paracord slings but I suppose itís possible.

I believe there will be, it's rated 550lbs but it gets minimum elongation 30% , 10% elongation is enough to ruin the throw. compared to linen and UHMWPE which get ~3.5% at break

we can do a static experiment where we hang from the sling 10-20 kg and measure elongation but unless the result is a† big elongation we cannot know the result in slinging. Or we can do a dynamic experiment and use two materials linen vs paracord or dyneema vs paracord on a trebuchet and compare ranges while making sure there is no change in the release angle.

I bought paracord from ebay and also had a friend bring me some from the army , at first glance there is no difference but there is clear difference in the core yarns, army's look A+ quality.
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walter
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #20 - Mar 18th, 2020 at 7:45pm
 
I like pcord. I use it on seat belt slings. I like to braid hemp, jute and yucca. None of these noticeably stretch when I am slinging. Wool does unless it is plaited over another fiber.
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #21 - Mar 19th, 2020 at 7:09am
 
Sarosh wrote on Mar 18th, 2020 at 6:21pm:
J wrote on Mar 18th, 2020 at 3:30pm:
You'd have to braid extremely tight not to get any elasticity in natural braided cords, though

elasticity is a physical property of the fiber , plant fibers generally are not elastic, animal fibers generally are , synthetic fibers can be both. I am not talking about braid tightness

Morphy wrote on Mar 18th, 2020 at 4:45pm:
I use to be worried about paracord stretching, but itís rated at 550lbs so the force exerted on those two cords during the throw is very small and the stretch probably is as well. Iíve never noticed stretch on my paracord slings but I suppose itís possible.

I believe there will be, it's rated 550lbs but it gets minimum elongation 30% , 10% elongation is enough to ruin the throw. compared to linen and UHMWPE which get ~3.5% at break

we can do a static experiment where we hang from the sling 10-20 kg and measure elongation but unless the result is a† big elongation we cannot know the result in slinging. Or we can do a dynamic experiment and use two materials linen vs paracord or dyneema vs paracord on a trebuchet and compare ranges while making sure there is no change in the release angle.

I bought paracord from ebay and also had a friend bring me some from the army , at first glance there is no difference but there is clear difference in the core yarns, army's look A+ quality.


Oh for sure, thereís a big difference between the cheap stuff and the really high quality paracord.
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JudoP
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #22 - Mar 21st, 2020 at 9:22pm
 
Manila sling is complete. Pic below.

I'm a big fan of this material so far. It's got a stiffness and feel similar to pre-soak sisal. It's fairly decent to braid with, the rope splits easily into fibres, though if you cut into longer fibres (~60cm) then these wont so easily split from bundles which can cause a bit of mess. The fibres themselves are pretty thick and very strong. I actually cut my hand trying to break one, so yeah, don't try that.

In total I used around 80% of 1m of 16mm diameter manila rope, so I got the perfect amount really... This cost about £2, so not a crazy expensive material. I've actually got 4m of 25mm rope on the way (about 10x as much material wise) for only ~£13 so (not planning to be bored during isolation!).

Sling observations:
-It is perhaps slightly rougher than sisal and I think long term use would mandate some sort of protection for the index finger (quick wrap of e-tape would do the job). It's possible that a post-braid soak will soften this up a bit.

-It's got a touch of elasticity to it, though it's not really noticeable unless you really try stretch it. It's nothing close to cotton for example. However, this might make it not particularly suited to thinner braided slings where the stretch could become more significant.

-It feels surprisingly light and quite fast to throw. This is a slightly lighter build than I've used for balearic slings in the past, though I'm sure the material is contributing most of this.

-I've tried a sample which was soaked post braiding, it seems to increase flexibility a fair amount and softens the braid a little, though it did increase the stretch factor. This sample was not dried under tension, so hopefully the increase in stretch can be avoided by using this. I will probably soak this sling partly as experiment, though its perfectly fine now if you like stiffer slings.

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walter
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #23 - Mar 21st, 2020 at 9:57pm
 
Nice! I think that sling will get more flexible through use Wink
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Rat Man
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #24 - Mar 22nd, 2020 at 7:21pm
 
Wool, synthetic yarn, and leather lace have way too much stretch to them, though they're OK in combination with other materials.  I haven't noticed significant stretch in other materials I've used.
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #25 - Jan 27th, 2021 at 12:53pm
 
Not to necro this thread but I've now made three manila fibre slings and can opine a bit on what it is like to work with. Others that also have, please chip in. Note the reasoning here applies to fibre braiding only. Here are my findings:

-The material is closely comparable with sisal, the fibres are thicker and the colour is different but the overall feel is pretty much the same. So I will mainly talk about this material in comparison with sisal.

-Perhaps relevant to some of the recent forum discussions- I've found manila slings to be stiffer than their sisal counterparts. This holds true whether you carry out a soaking/dry under tension process on the completed sling or not. To clarify, the soaking process significantly loosens up the feel of both materials, however comparing like for like treatment, manila braids have been stiffer than sisal braids in both cases. I would recommend soaking treatment for some types of slings or if you prefer more pliable cords. I now believe not soaking is best for balearic slings.

-Stretch seems to be pretty much negligible for both materials, even after soaking treatment. Though you must dry under tension or you will get a springy/stretchy sling. Stretch will likely become a factor if moving to thin braided slings which I may experiment with at some point.

-Weight wise- I was mistaken earlier with the apparent light feeling balearic sling. The lightness was due to my construction rather than material. It is about the same is sisal.

-I've heard from someone else on here (I think it was Albion Slinger) that he found manila tassels to have poor lifetime in a cracking sling. I can't comment on this as I have spliced either kevlar or dyneema into the end of each of the ones I have made. I would honestly be surprised if it is that bad, since manila feels really tough, perhaps fibre quality varies by supplier- I certainly know that is true for sisal. Going from what information I can find manila is slightly stronger and slightly more abrasion resistant than sisal.

-Manila is slightly rougher to handle than sisal and will cause more abrasion on your hands during use. Though it is perhaps more secure to grip and a secure grip can be maintained on thinner cords.

Overall sisal and manila feel very similar to me, I don't think the choice will make or break your sling unless you are really trying to refine the design. They cost about the same too, though sisal seems much more common.
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #26 - Jan 27th, 2021 at 9:06pm
 
J wrote on Mar 18th, 2020 at 8:45am:
I've stopped making slings of natural fibre. Never had any of them perform better than thin paracord slings. Eventually I purchased a Balearic sling of Luis Pons Livermore because I thought I was doing something wrong. Truth be told, while it is a fantastic work of art, it felt like one of the most sluggish slings I ever used. It feels like I get the same amount of power out of a thin paracord sling with much less effort going into the throw. Even after getting used to it, once I swap back to the thin paracord sling, it feels amazing how much easier it is to get power.

But this is my own personal experience. It might be different for others.

So when it comes to performance I no longer feel any reason to go natural fiber. There is still the aesthetic reason. But it's not high on my list. The only reason these days I would use natural fibre is if I had no alternative.


Hilariously, I have reached the opposite conclusion. Thick slings braided with natural fibers seem to do some of the work for me thus making each shot easier. I guess it all depends on personal preference.
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #27 - Jan 28th, 2021 at 1:09pm
 
JudoP wrote on Jan 27th, 2021 at 12:53pm:
I've heard from someone else on here (I think it was Albion Slinger) that he found manila tassels to have poor lifetime in a cracking sling. I can't comment on this as I have spliced either kevlar or dyneema into the end of each of the ones I have made. I would honestly be surprised if it is that bad, since manila feels really tough, perhaps fibre quality varies by supplier- I certainly know that is true for sisal. Going from what information I can find manila is slightly stronger and slightly more abrasion resistant than sisal.

That's right. I have bought manila from two different places and made a few slings from the fibre, but the ends of all of them deteriorated very quickly. While the fibre is very strong and good against abrasion, I think the fibre is also brittle (synthetic or replaceable cracker recommended) . One more thing is that manila fibres seem to be less consistent compared to sisal/pita i.e. each sisal fibre is similar in look, thickness and strength, where as manila fibres vary a lot (will probably depend of grade of fibre too).
I much prefer braiding sisal (preferably pita) because of this.
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #28 - Jan 28th, 2021 at 3:28pm
 
SerKraus wrote on Jan 27th, 2021 at 9:06pm:
J wrote on Mar 18th, 2020 at 8:45am:
I've stopped making slings of natural fibre. Never had any of them perform better than thin paracord slings. Eventually I purchased a Balearic sling of Luis Pons Livermore because I thought I was doing something wrong. Truth be told, while it is a fantastic work of art, it felt like one of the most sluggish slings I ever used. It feels like I get the same amount of power out of a thin paracord sling with much less effort going into the throw. Even after getting used to it, once I swap back to the thin paracord sling, it feels amazing how much easier it is to get power.

But this is my own personal experience. It might be different for others.

So when it comes to performance I no longer feel any reason to go natural fiber. There is still the aesthetic reason. But it's not high on my list. The only reason these days I would use natural fibre is if I had no alternative.


Hilariously, I have reached the opposite conclusion. Thick slings braided with natural fibers seem to do some of the work for me thus making each shot easier. I guess it all depends on personal preference.


What throwing style are you using?
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Re: Natural cords material experimentation
Reply #29 - Jan 28th, 2021 at 5:12pm
 
Albion Slinger wrote on Jan 28th, 2021 at 1:09pm:
That's right. I have bought manila from two different places and made a few slings from the fibre, but the ends of all of them deteriorated very quickly. While the fibre is very strong and good against abrasion, I think the fibre is also brittle (synthetic or replaceable cracker recommended) . One more thing is that manila fibres seem to be less consistent compared to sisal/pita i.e. each sisal fibre is similar in look, thickness and strength, where as manila fibres vary a lot (will probably depend of grade of fibre too).
I much prefer braiding sisal (preferably pita) because of this.


I see, thankyou for your input. It seems like you tested it quite thoroughly.

SerKraus wrote on Jan 27th, 2021 at 9:06pm:
Hilariously, I have reached the opposite conclusion. Thick slings braided with natural fibers seem to do some of the work for me thus making each shot easier. I guess it all depends on personal preference.


I think Jauke has since changed his position. He now favours balearic style slings.
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