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Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power (Read 350 times)
NooneOfConsequence
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Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Jun 25th, 2019 at 9:34pm
 
Ok here’s my thought:
A professional baseball pitcher can throw a 100mph fastball with a 145g ball. That works out to about 145J of energy transferred from the pitcher to the ball. Assuming that you can get that much energy into a smaller projectile, you should be able to break the sound barrier (340m/s) with a 2g piece of ammo (if the sling has zero mass). It wouldn’t be easy, but it might be possible to throw something that weighs under a gram faster than the speed of sound. Anyone want to try?

For reference, this would be very dangerous... a bullet from a .22 rifle weighs about 2g and travels just under the speed of sound, so we’re talking about something that could be deadly, and could potentially fly in any direction if something goes wrong with the release.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Mersa
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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #1 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 1:23am
 
Maybe in a vacuum but I feel that simple wind resistance would make this feat impossible.
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Sarosh
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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #2 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 2:44am
 
take a whip and measure the mass of the cracking point if it is 2grams then remove it and  proceed to design a pouch for the tip of the whip releasing at the best time, then try it.

"Hammer throw practitioners achieve a projectile energy of ~3000 joules, at the Olympic level."
that doesn't mean you can throw a 100gram stone with 3kJ 245m/s , mass is crucial.
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #3 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 8:24am
 
That’s exactly the point!  You can’t just throw a lighter projectile and expect it to work. It requires an engineering effort to build a sling that does the impedance matching that would allow for efficient energy transfer to a tiny missile. If you put a tiny pouch on a whip, it might work, but I think a compound sling might be more controllable.

Here’s a fairly complete look at the math:
https://modphys.hosted.uark.edu/pdfs/CMwBang_Pdfs/CMwBang_PapersNTalks/Trebuchet
_vs_Flinger.pdf
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #4 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 8:28am
 
For some reason part of the link cut off. Top result here:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C44&q=flinger+trebuchet
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Sarosh
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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #5 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 9:02am
 
Finally something new ! Thanks NooneOfConsequence.it requires reading before any serious answer. I only skimmed through seems very interesting
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #6 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 9:45am
 
No problem!  I love how they walk through the math using Newtonian, Hamiltonian, and Lagrangian dynamics analyses... Once you get past the first few pages of fluff, it's a really interesting paper, and it specifically addresses the supersonic problem at least in a cursory fashion at the end.

For reference, here's a decent comparison of human-powered projectiles in sports:
https://engaging-data.com/kinetic-energy-sports/

I like that they differentiate between equipment-assisted and non-assisted results.  The equipment all allows lighter-weight objects to be launched at higher energies.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #7 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 9:49am
 
@mersa
"seems impossible" is a great reason to try!  Here's a fairly good analysis of the effects of going supersonic with tiny projectiles and what effect it has:

https://www.pyramydair.com/article/Velocity_and_Pellets_April_2003/2

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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #8 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 1:00pm
 
Maybe you could attach a giant bullwhip onto a trebuchet, then maybe get a few grams going pretty fast.
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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #9 - Jun 27th, 2019 at 10:24am
 
Hmm, it's things like this that tend to do dangerous things to my little grey cells.
The compound sling was the result of one such brain fart.

This time round, it's the nested, twist finned supercharged, sling glande.

And this is still appearing in the dark receses of my mind, so bear with me here.

You have a moderate sized glande, that will split in 2 or 4 about half a second after release to unveil a slim, light missile with spiral fins that will work much like propellors to accelerate it in a straight line.

Not sure how much extra speed we can get - but one thing we do know, you can get an awful lot of spin into a glande - convert that into forward acceleration and you should be able to get something that - for a short distance anyway - will travel at a ridiculous speed.

It won't travel very far - so much safer than a bullet. Once the spin slows the fins will add a lot of drag.  But we're not after distance here just a maximum burst of speed.
Now i just need to work out how to generate a lipped spiral.
I can even make the carrier glande reuseable. Kind of like a sabot round.

Discuss (lol) 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #10 - Jun 27th, 2019 at 3:48pm
 
Hmmm... I like your line of thinking CA, but I don’t think it would help here specifically.  Energy that goes into the rotation doesn’t go into forward motion. You can put a lot of spin on a glande, but is this really “free” energy that can be converted into thrust? Or is it better to design a pouch that doesn’t induce spin to start with so that more energy goes into the forward motion?

It would be neat to build a glande that spins out of the pouch, discards a sabot cover, then changes directions and propellers up into the sky.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #11 - Jun 28th, 2019 at 12:56am
 
That sounds like the effect I observe when throwing Marri fruit (Corymbia calophylla).
They have the flattest trajectory of all the things I throw . I can also produce the most left to right curve with these.
Dry they are often too light and can weigh up to 25g , wet ones can sometimes get up towards 100g (both are rough estimates not measured weights).
When thrown correctly they spin in a clockwise direction along the long axis with the ball end at the front.
I feel the cavity in the back has a lot to do with the stability.
When a good throw is achieved they fly flat and fast then drop off in speed at about 45-55m . I can throw a good one about 85-90m .
If you throw them slightly angled in the pouch they often turn rapidly left to right and don't go very far.

I once tryed throwing tubes , they had some crazy gyroscopic effects if you could get it to fly foward. And crazy Magnus effect lift if thrown sideways .

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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #12 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 7:11am
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jun 27th, 2019 at 3:48pm:
Hmmm... I like your line of thinking CA, but I don’t think it would help here specifically.  Energy that goes into the rotation doesn’t go into forward motion. You can put a lot of spin on a glande, but is this really “free” energy that can be converted into thrust? Or is it better to design a pouch that doesn’t induce spin to start with so that more energy goes into the forward motion?

It would be neat to build a glande that spins out of the pouch, discards a sabot cover, then changes directions and propellers up into the sky.


well as long as you have the right fin setup, then yes the rotation will cause it to accelerate.
They'll act as sccops/air rams, that funnel the air to the rear of the glande where it acts as extra thrust.

It's essentially an inpowered jet engine that uses the imparted rotation to power the 'engine'.
Like i said, it won't go far, but it will go fast Smiley
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Sarosh
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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #13 - Jul 6th, 2019 at 3:30am
 
@
Curious Aardvark

I would guess unfolding propellers and if they fold back at the right time you lower the drag , so centrifugal force unfolding propellers?
not sure if they would accelerate to higher speeds or just retain a speed for longer time.
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Re: Breaking the sound barrier using only muscle power
Reply #14 - Jul 25th, 2019 at 9:56am
 
remember it's two part. It's only the turbo powered core that keep going.
Probably just have light friction keeping the launch vehicle together.
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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
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