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Maximum Accuracy Redux (Read 10907 times)
Morphy
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Maximum Accuracy Redux
Jun 1st, 2018 at 12:11pm
 
Several years ago I started a thread asking members on their views of the greatest degree of consistent accuracy possible with a sling.

At that time it seemed that I and a few others tended towards the upper of the spectrum of what we thought might be possible. Where as others surprised me with some fairly low estimates.

So what are your views on what the maximum attainable accuracy with a sling is? For example, what is the maximum distance and the smallest target you believe is hypothetically possible to hit 50% of the time?

To be clear, this is not what you are currently able to do, but assuming slinging continues to become more and more popular and let's assume for the sake of this scenario it ends up in the Olympics with all the millions of dollars spent on biomechanical engineering and slow motion capture etc to produce the greatest slingers possible. What distance and target size at 50% accuracy do you think is possible?
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jlasud
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #1 - Jun 2nd, 2018 at 7:05am
 
I'd guesstimate 15 cm target at 30m with 50% hit ratio
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #2 - Jun 2nd, 2018 at 8:11am
 
I would have to go with “Benjamite” accuracy: The most liberal Biblical interpretation would assume “hair” means a head-sized target rather than a literal hair’s breadth, so then the account is still missing a distance, but it was clearly used for warfare at ancient battlefield distances. Let’s assume it’s at least 10-20m with nearly perfect accuracy.  So let’s arbitrarily  double that distance for 50% hits.   The fact that there were 700 of them implies it is not unique to a certain anatomy but was teachable generally.
To sum up, I would guess that almost anyone who is physically fit and is dedicated enough could reliably hit a 30cm target at 30m with years of practice. The olympic-grade slinger would do even better. I will jump over to the maths section to do the reverse analysis to see what would be necessary to achieve that level of slinging zen.

BTW, the Benjamite account is also consistent with anecdotal modern accounts I’ve heard from soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan who have claimed that some children could hit a bottle cap target with a rock.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Sarosh
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #3 - Jun 2nd, 2018 at 8:50am
 
short answer 50cmØ @ 100m 50% (=0.286° equal to 15cm@30m  jlasud said, just more distance)

accuracy and consistency are completely different.
although i'm currently @~10° 70%  i have hit targets (i wanted to) 0.19° and less. that's 10cm@30m
the gap is huge.
the logic goes if you can do it once why not twice thrice ...multiple times.
unless a big part of those accurate throws is luck then we can reach incredible amounts of consistency.

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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #4 - Jun 2nd, 2018 at 11:53am
 
@Sarosh: see my analysis in maths. We are talking about a consistency on the order of a few hundred microseconds of timing error at the most to achieve that.

I ignored ballistics in the analysis, but I suspect that air resistance and ballistic trajectories actually help improve accuracy because extra speed has diminishing returns... thus small variations in speed or angle at max range become almost negligible in how they affect the hit at the extreme range limits. If true, that would relax those tight timing restrictions a little bit.

Are there any mortarmen or artillery experts out there who want to back me up on this (or call BS?)
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Morphy
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #5 - Jun 2nd, 2018 at 12:51pm
 
Right now I believe it's something like a coke can at 50 meters. 50% hit rate over a 10 shot round.

This is elite level. In the same way that people thought a 4 minute mile was impossible at one point and now you would be no where near the record if you ran a 4 min mile. 

The more shots in the round the more that would lower but  over a relatively short round like one would find in Olympic archery I think it's possible, and maybe more.

This sums up my view as well:

the logic goes if you can do it once why not twice thrice ...multiple times.
unless a big part of those accurate throws is luck then we can reach incredible amounts of consistency.


I think this is right on. It squares with my experience at least.

The issue of the limit of human reflexes being well under the kind of accuracy talked about by anecdotal sources is one that needs explaining.

It's my belief that the actual point of release is not the only timing your body takes into account for proper timing but the point at which one pulls initially into the pitch as well. This would give a much longer timing and be used as the main timing with the point of release being tweaked both subconsciously and consciously by your brain to give more precise control.

You can test this by switching from a very heavy stone to a light stone and vice-versa. Over and under rotation are common until your brain resets the timing. That's not to say that reflexes don't play a part as they certainly do, but what part for certain and to what extent I cannot say.

So far it seems people's views on the accuracy of the sling are bit more generous than previously. I'm sure Jaegoor's excellent target slinging videos have played a part in that as well.

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Sarosh
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #6 - Jun 2nd, 2018 at 1:43pm
 
@NooneOfConsequence   I read the math .
You talk about millisec you would be right if we where talking about a changing environment and conscious effort.
The mind can predict the movement of an object pretty accurately but we are throwing and not receiving (like a baseball batter would)

when throwing you consciously ask the mind to perform a sequence of things, the body is like performing unconsciously.

Imagine walking, if you put effort to coordinate every step then you would walk like a child.
The child consciously teached it's unconscious to do the job, now it asks it to walk and walks.

Now back to slinging.
Stationary target doesn't need hand eye coordination as much as proprioception, the release of the sling is part of a sequence, not an independent conscious thought (there will be always a degree of consciousness on release since you are always learning but a noob does it  much more than a pro).
So you have you legs on the ground and perform a sequence, the errors are more spacial.

read this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_coordination)
an important part is “Uncontrolled manifold hypothesis"

says something like, there many degrees of freedom, the pro mind doesn't care, manipulates whatever comes to achieve the goal.

A paradigm i have in my mind is that of a surfer
whatever the form and shape of the wave ,whatever comes at him he will ride the wave.

Human nature.
With this in mind we can't quantify the limit. Only raise the bar a step at time like mr Jaegoor Wink

I have been discussing it w/ people around me, the most interesting answer was “unlimited”. if you take this as an answer you'll feel so small and incompetent, even if you spend your whole life at it you will never reach “unlimited”, that can hold you back or take away your joy so you'll search for a number, a limit that you can reach so you can find joy into chaos. Vanity of vanities!


took me sometime to write this one , it seems morphy said similar things in the meantime.
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #7 - Jun 2nd, 2018 at 2:21pm
 
@sarosh: no need to get too worked up. I am not claiming it’s impossible, I am just trying to put a number on it.  Whether conscious or proprioceptive or a combination, the process must be repeatable down to several hundred microseconds... but I think you may be able to downgrade that to a millisecond-ish if the non-linear ballistic losses eat up your small variations. That’s all ballpark and based on some big assumptions which may be invalid. I would have to do more analysis and read up on both the ballistics and the biomechanics literature  to really be able to speak intelligently on it Smiley
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Sarosh
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #8 - Jun 3rd, 2018 at 3:31am
 
not worked up Tongue
it's difficult to understand emotion from text
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jun 2nd, 2018 at 2:21pm:
Whether conscious or proprioceptive or a combination, the process must be repeatable down to several hundred microseconds

that's just one approach, the other is "Uncontrolled manifold hypothesis" link above
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #9 - Jun 3rd, 2018 at 7:58am
 
The manifold hypothesis appears to be a theory on how the brain models kinematic solutions to complex, high degree-of-freedom motions.  I am immediately suspicious when the Wikipedia article categorizes all motions as “good” or “bad” instead of a balance of competing constraints, and I seriously doubt the brain explicitly calculates relative joint angles as described. It sounds to me like a theory that a mathematcian would come up with after playing with a robotic arm without understanding how it differs from a human arm, but that may be a flaw in the Wikipedia description rather than a flaw in the theory itself. 

Either way,  the transmission of signals and activation of muscles would still need sub-millisecond precision to achieve the sling accuracies we are talking about here regardless of the specific way the body does it. The mechanics of how that precision would be achieved is an entirely different conversation.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Morphy
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #10 - Jun 3rd, 2018 at 9:11am
 
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1342379091/0

For reference from the original thread.
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #11 - Jun 3rd, 2018 at 10:58am
 
Thanks Morphy. It’s always interesting to see how people discussed these questions in the past too. I like the idea of unlimited human potential, and I personally want to build a machine with enough precision to sling a hole-in-one from a couple hundred yards, but if we’re talking about an olympics situation where robots and performance enhancing drugs are not allowed, then I think there will be some limits based on human anatomy. I don’t know where that limit is exactly, and there’s a huge gap between that limit and what the average person can do, but I don’t believe that there are no limits at all.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Morphy
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #12 - Jun 3rd, 2018 at 11:11am
 
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jun 3rd, 2018 at 10:58am:
Thanks Morphy. It’s always interesting to see how people discussed these questions in the past too. I like the idea of unlimited human potential, and I personally want to build a machine with enough precision to sling a hole-in-one from a couple hundred yards, but if we’re talking about an olympics situation where robots and performance enhancing drugs are not allowed, then I think there will be some limits based on human anatomy. I don’t know where that limit is exactly, and there’s a huge gap between that limit and what the average person can do, but I don’t believe that there are no limits at all.



I agree, and I enjoy reading your thoughts on this subject. I hope someday we as a community can make Roboslinger happen since it will allow us to begin to separate the limitations of the sling itself vs the human variable. Wouldn't that be a huge accomplishment in itself? A good start anyways.

Since the basis of this question is essentially proving a negative we will likely never have a hard and fast answer but combining those gifted in math and physics with those like Jaegoor who can continue to push the limits (and in doing so set a baseline for which we can say, "Ok, we know based on this video for sure this much at least can be done.", ) We can probably get a pretty close answer.
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Mersa
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #13 - Jun 4th, 2018 at 12:13am
 
I'm in the thoughts that there are two types of throws/hits .
One that is based on speed over falling and one that incorporates falling. Like shooting a bow , or even a slingshot.
At some point there is substantial drop in the shot as speed decreases . When shooting flat you are trying to outrun gravity. On long arc shots the shooting becomes much more dynamic and factors such as wind and air moisture can easily effect your aim. So I think that the distance has to be more on the FLAT side of the slings capabilities. That changes with users and sling lengths so I'd say between 20-100m for a 50cm disk with a golfball .
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Maximum Accuracy Redux
Reply #14 - Jun 5th, 2018 at 8:00am
 
I just watched the Slow-mo Guys measure the reaction time of pouring water in the eye and compare it to the speed of shattering pyrex glass. For reference, the blink of an eye is 40 times slower than the time it takes to change from a hit to a miss when slinging at a 30cm target from 30m.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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