Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Sling Ammunition Data Discussion (Read 262 times)
woodssj
Forum Moderation
*****
Offline


That lake isn't going
to fill itself, y'know...

Posts: 302
'Round & about, Here and there
Gender: male
Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
May 15th, 2018 at 8:01pm
 
All,
    This is for discussion of Ammunition! There will be plenty of discussion I'm sure, but the first thing to get out of the way is how to categorize ammunition for when we start collecting metrics on it.

    As you will notice, in the Individual Score Book For The Sling, ammunition has a place to be noted. While I don't expect lot numbers and production dates, we do need some data, and it'll be worth coming up with a few standard categories.

    I propose to put together a similar Google Form asking for Accuracy Data at each range alongside ammunition type. Type will be a separate heading from mass of ammunition, but that's yet to be determined.

    Proposed classes of ammunition include: Metal Shot (Round), Metal Shot (Egg), Metal Shot (Other), Rock (smooth/egg), Rock (Rough/egg), Rock (Rough/irregular), Rock (Smooth/Irregular), Ball (Tennis), Ball (Golf), Ball (Beach), Ball (Other).

    Let the debate begin!
Back to top
 

Confused Archaeologists are the best Archaeologists.
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2993
Texas
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #1 - May 15th, 2018 at 10:06pm
 
May I suggest a little standardization of ammo?

The air dry clay is inexpensive, uniform, and relatively simple to form using the CA roller method (I swear he didn’t pay me to say that Smiley )
I think we should choose some reasonable dimensions for ammo in roughly 10g increments so we can all be slinging very similar projectiles when we want to be consistent across the globe.
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2993
Texas
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #2 - May 15th, 2018 at 10:24pm
 
Along with a standard ammo type, I would also suggest a common nomenclature. If air dry clay is acceptable, I would suggest something like CAP xx/yy “Curious Aardvark, Pointed, xx mm max diameter, yy mm length”

P for pointy, R for round?
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2993
Texas
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #3 - May 15th, 2018 at 10:28pm
 
Of course there’s nothing wrong with the other ammos  woodsj suggests, but when we need consistency for data collection purposes, my vote is for “standard clay”
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Skinner
past-moderator
****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3292
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #4 - May 18th, 2018 at 5:02pm
 
Except I fire my clay in either a fire or in a kiln.  And I use clay I dug out of a slough.   Grin

Joking aside, one of the problems with clay will be the density.  It is going to be all over the place and that will change the weight in relation to its size.

Just tossing a monkey wrench into the gears to see what happens.   Grin

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
woodssj
Forum Moderation
*****
Offline


That lake isn't going
to fill itself, y'know...

Posts: 302
'Round & about, Here and there
Gender: male
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #5 - May 18th, 2018 at 5:20pm
 
Well, that's definitely a problem for highly-accurate testing. It's the difference between a jacketed lead Spitzer-point boat-tailed bullet, and an unjacketed hollow-point wad-cutter made out of aluminum. To get a really good comparison, we'd need to make uniform ammo, of the same density, balance, and shape, which would require machining a mold and casting our own and weighing them for uniformity and so on... That will need to wait until we can get a smaller sample of highly-skilled slingers together for comprehensive tests.

But for our purposes, looking at a slightly less scientific/engineering and more historical/humanities side, there's some lee-way.

Uniformity is already provided with the sports equipment elements, so that solves a problem there. For the other ammunition types, we'll at least be able to see some patterns, and see what would be worth studying in future. For example, Rough/Irregular rocks are already known to be less than ideal, but seeing if there's a difference at all between smooth and rough egg-shaped stones might be interesting. Same with egg vs round metal shot. Perhaps for the majority of us, any reasonable metal ammunition will be basically match-grade at the ranges we sling for...

We'll see, once the data gets collected...
Back to top
 

Confused Archaeologists are the best Archaeologists.
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2993
Texas
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #6 - May 18th, 2018 at 6:38pm
 
That’s a fair point. I was assuming that the brand name clays would be consistent, but that obviously needs to be validated
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2993
Texas
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #7 - May 18th, 2018 at 7:29pm
 
Bill Skinner wrote on May 18th, 2018 at 5:02pm:
Just tossing a monkey wrench into the gears to see what happens.   Grin


Hey, I once invented a recipe for calibrated mud and had a test method and test apparatus to verify that the mud was within spec. You’ll have to try harder than that to monkey up our plans  Grin
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2993
Texas
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #8 - May 18th, 2018 at 7:32pm
 
... actually that’s not entirely true. A chemist colleague came up with the final recipe on my behalf. I did come up with the calibration methods though Smiley
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Skinner
past-moderator
****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3292
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #9 - May 21st, 2018 at 10:46am
 
I make pottery. 

Clays are way different, even in the areas where I get mine.  A lot of that will depend on how much organic material is in it and the other is how much silt is in it.

We won't even go into the differences between the types of clay such as Terra Cotta or Kaolin.

Usually, commercial clays are Kaolin but not all. 

And the air dried with plasticizeirs will be lighter than a similar clay without that is to be fired in a kiln.

May I suggest ball bearings, specifically some form of roller bearings? 

They are steel, which isn't as harmful to the countryside as lead, they are uniform and they have a polished surface.  Not quite the correct shape but close.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Curious Aardvark
past-administrator
*****
Offline


Taller than the average
Dwarf

Posts: 13965
Midlands England
Gender: male
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #10 - May 21st, 2018 at 3:42pm
 
the big problem with steel balls is that they richochet - a lot !

There's a lot more 'bounce' in a ball bearing than you'd think.

They are not quite as bad as golf balls - but be prepared to duck !

So with standardising ammo - does it matter if the clay is of different densities if the EXACT size is known ?
Surely the methods exist to adjust for different densities of ammunition of exactly the same size.

My moulds are usually within a few hundredths of a mm.
Use a set of jewellery scales to weigh the clay used for each glande.

And weigh once dry/fired.

The air dry clay is actually probably heavier than fired clay. the fibres seem to prevent total moisture loss and they stay pretty heavy, even after months lying around in my workshop.

So you know the exact size and weight of a glande - work out the volume and density and should be fairly easy (for better mathematicians than me) to use that to adjust for different clay types.
Back to top
 

Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2993
Texas
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #11 - May 21st, 2018 at 8:51pm
 
Any kitchen scale should be reasonably accurate, and to get the volume you just drop a known mass of clay into a measuring cup half full of water. However much the water rises is the clay’s volume. Divide the volume by the dry weight to get the ammo density (this assumes negligible shrinking as the clay dries).
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
NooneOfConsequence
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2993
Texas
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #12 - May 21st, 2018 at 8:56pm
 
The other trade off with spherical ammo like golf balls and bearings is that you can’t tell as easily if the sling had a clean release. A football shape will wobble or tumble or fly like an arrow. All else being equal, a sphere will be more consistent but it’s less aerodynamic and won’t fly as far as a cleanly-thrown glande because of air resistance.
Back to top
 

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
IP Logged
 
woodssj
Forum Moderation
*****
Offline


That lake isn't going
to fill itself, y'know...

Posts: 302
'Round & about, Here and there
Gender: male
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #13 - May 21st, 2018 at 10:30pm
 
So, it's now occurring to me that Glandes in the classic almond or biconical shape aren't just so you don't have to load them more carefully... They're like Boat-Tail bullets.

I should have caught that sooner.
Back to top
 

Confused Archaeologists are the best Archaeologists.
 
IP Logged
 
Mersa
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Druid

Posts: 2615
Australia
Gender: male
Re: Sling Ammunition Data Discussion
Reply #14 - May 22nd, 2018 at 6:20am
 
Wrong again , I believe that the shape is due to the damage it wants to inflict. You start with a ball how can you make it pointy basically you end up with a glande. I've tried my best to improve on this shape for sharpness in my head and I can't come up with a better design . I think for distance you would have changed the design but for damage I think the glande is the optimal design. Unfortunately I have no reference to my claim it's just my belief as a slinger.
Back to top
 

Razor glandes, Aim for the eyes!!!
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: woodssj, Rat Man, joe_meadmaker)