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Roboslinger! (Read 2058 times)
NooneOfConsequence
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Roboslinger!
Apr 12th, 2018 at 10:01am
 
Moving this discussion to its own topic...

This forum has been going for a long time now and it seems like a lot of topics get recycled... particularly questions in one form or another about accuracy and distance. Questions may focus on pouch design, ammo shapes, throwing style, or the gravitational effects of the moon, but there’s no easy way to really definitively answer a lot of these questions by sharing opinions or anecdotes. Sometimes you need solid data to get a solid answer, but slinging is so complicated that controlling all the variables in the data is nearly impossible... especially since a human is involved.

Enter the Roboslinger. I hereby propose that we build an instrumented precision trebuchet, not to answer questions of human capability, but to maybe settle some of the questions of slinging mechanics by taking the human out of the equation. By precision, I mean tight tolerances and low friction components. By instrumented, I mean we actually put sensors on it to measure things like string tension and rate of rotation. And it would obviously have to allow you to attach almost any sling to the arm for apples-apples comparisons of slings. In other words, this is not your run-of-the-mill medieval siege engine. It’s a rock slinging science machine!

I am a robotics engineer by day, and I could probably just build something myself and tell you all about it, but after my family and side business,  I don’t have enough time left in the evenings and weekends to do this without some help. I’d rather make this a community project anyway. I have plenty of design ideas, but other people live in better places for testing it. Maybe it’s designed to ship around the world as needed?

Before we could start using a Roboslinger, we would have to come up with a design, a budget, build it, characterize it, and plan out what information we need to collect to answer what questions. This might also cost more money than I personally could put in, which means we may want to consider fundraising options like t-shirts, slings, or maybe giving away slings for GoFundMe donations.

What do you all think?
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Morphy
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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #1 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 10:27am
 
I'm all in of course. Anything I can do to help just let me know. I'm in the Houston area, not sure where you are at but if you are around here and need a second pair of hands, albeit unskilled, I will pitch in wherever and whenever possible.

As for design mechanics I don't know how complicated you are planning on going but I think one thing that is often overlooked is palm position in relation to forward momentum. That is something that interests me. There are many other things as well but plenty of time to discuss them later.

Thanks for being willing to do this. I think whether people immediately realize it or not this is a big deal for advancing slinging as a sport.
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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #2 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 11:00am
 
Sounds a great idea. I can't wait to see some data.

The simplest way to do it would be to use a 'rubber powered' trebuchet I would imagine. Joergsprave of the slingshot channel on youtube already did something similar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vJBKfQFD8I

(starting around 11mins- I recommend the whole vid though, it's pretty interesting)

You could use your own throws to calibrate it to a realistic power level.

It would be pretty interesting to get a high speed camera on it to to see the speed or path through time too.

In terms of what I can contribute, I'm not really in a place to test nor do I have much resources to build. I'm also poor and busy  Tongue But if there's any maths or analysis I could pitch in depending on how much I've got on.
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #3 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 11:09am
 
Morphy wrote on Apr 12th, 2018 at 10:27am:
I'm all in of course. Anything I can do to help just let me know. I'm in the Houston area, not sure where you are at but if you are around here and need a second pair of hands, albeit unskilled, I will pitch in wherever and whenever possible.

As for design mechanics I don't know how complicated you are planning on going but I think one thing that is often overlooked is palm position in relation to forward momentum. That is something that interests me. There are many other things as well but plenty of time to discuss them later.

Thanks for being willing to do this. I think whether people immediately realize it or not this is a big deal for advancing slinging as a sport.


Thanks Morphy!

As far as how complicated... I would say it should be as simple as possible and only as complicated as necessary.  I doubt we will get everything right on the first try, but you can't learn what's not there until you have something to test out, so my preferred method of development is to build something, learn from it, then iterate.  The side-benefit is that there may end up being multiple versions of Roboslinger that serve different purposes and there would be more hardware to pass around.

As far as community engagement, I think that educators would be a really good target.  Whether it's history, anthropology, physics, biomechanics, aerodynamics, or mechanical engineering, there is something here for a lot of educators to use, and I could see possibly loaning the roboslinger out to academic researchers who want to use it to write academic publications as well.  The advantage of this approach is that, by reaching out to a few educators, those people can then reach hundreds or thousands of students who might take an interest in slinging generally as a result.

As far as location, I am in the San Antonio area a few hours away from you.  I also have some family in the Houston area.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #4 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 11:13am
 
JudoP wrote on Apr 12th, 2018 at 11:00am:
Sounds a great idea. I can't wait to see some data.

The simplest way to do it would be to use a 'rubber powered' trebuchet I would imagine. Joergsprave of the slingshot channel on youtube already did something similar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vJBKfQFD8I

(starting around 11mins- I recommend the whole vid though, it's pretty interesting)

You could use your own throws to calibrate it to a realistic power level.

It would be pretty interesting to get a high speed camera on it to to see the speed or path through time too.

In terms of what I can contribute, I'm not really in a place to test nor do I have much resources to build. I'm also poor and busy  Tongue But if there's any maths or analysis I could pitch in depending on how much I've got on.


That might be an option, but Joerg also shows in other videos how the force generated by the rubber depends on temperature, so that might affect consistency more than a gravity-based version.  With the right design though, I don't see any reason why you couldn't do either/or on the same machine... just swap out the weight for a rubber band as-needed.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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timpa
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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #5 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 4:17pm
 
An exciting project that I follow with interest!
But if it has a rubber powered, is it then slingshot-robo?
On the other hand, these are just concepts.
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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #6 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 4:46pm
 
What about having it powered by something similar to a centrifuge, but with the ability to spin in multiple directions? Would that work? Might could even power it with something simple like a power drill. Or the power drill could be a temporary power source as the main body of the device is perfected, leaving a stronger source of power to be worked on after. I’m just throwing out ideas, hoping they may help in some way. As for the fundraising side, or anything else I’ll gladly help in any way I can. I agree that this, if it does come to fruition, could be a very, very, big deal.
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“When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.”
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #7 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 7:32pm
 
Before we get too far down the road on specific designs, here are a few "ideals" I think we could aim for:

1. low cost - I could go either way on this one. It might be possible to find a rich uncle who is willing to spend thousands of dollars, but until then, I suspect that the project will be somewhat price sensitive.  Low Cost would also make it easier for other people to replicate the design.

2. Portable - I would like it to be small enough that it can be transported in the trunk of a car (maybe partially disassembled), and not so huge or heavy that it costs hundreds of dollars to ship it across the world.

3. Easy to use - Not everyone is a scientist or engineer, and it shouldn't take a PhD to use a rock chucker anyway.  Whatever electronics and sensors go on it should be either intuitive or invisible to the user.

4. Modular - We should be able to swap out parts easily with minimal tools.  It should be easy to attach any sling that is made for a person on there so we can test the same slings we throw with.  The arm should be swap-able so we can play around with stiff arms versus bendy things with simulated elbows and wrists, or whatever.  We should be able to put weights or rubber bands on the pulling end, or some other propulsion mechanism if desired.

5. high performance - this one might violate #1, but I think we can find a balance between the two.  Whenever we can afford it, we should use good quality components and keep friction on moving parts to a minimum... but there are also plenty of craftsmen here who can do quality fabrication work.  It doesn't necessarily have to be expensive to perform well if people are willing to put time into making components.  Particularly expensive components should become specific fundraising goals.

6. Community ownership - I don't want this to just belong to one person unless only one person does all the work and spends all the money.  Anyone who wants to use it or improve it and is willing to follow the community-defined rules should be allowed to do so.   Contributions of time and ideas are just as valuable as money too. Rules should be transparent and defined ahead of time so the roboslinger's use isn't ruled by the whims of one person's arbitrary decisions.  There should not be rules for rule's sake, but as problems arise, rules should follow to solve those problems as simply as possible with minimal burden on the community.  And anyone put in a position of trust as a decision maker should also have clear rules of accountability.

7. It should actually be useful for answering specific questions about slinging and for demonstrating different principles of slinging.

8. We should have fun!

That's the short list of design goals off the top of my head.  More goals are also welcome  Smiley
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« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2018 at 8:42pm by NooneOfConsequence »  

“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Morphy
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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #8 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 9:03pm
 
Very well said!!

I was thinking it might be possible to set up some type of community auction to raise money for the birth or the world's first roboslinger.

We have a varied and talented group here, perhaps members could donate things to be auctioned off and we could put that money towards the creation of this device?

Once a design is on the table and we have a concrete fundraising goal to work towards I would be willing to start us off by offering this for auction:

...

This is only an image I found. Mine is virtually new. It's been used all of once to chop on a fallen log for about 5 minutes. If anyone else is interested in offering up purchased or handcrafted items please let us know so I can get a thread started after the design phase is complete.

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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #9 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 9:59pm
 
Morphy, wow! That’s incredibly generous!  I might want to bid on that chopper myself! Cheesy
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #10 - Apr 13th, 2018 at 12:28am
 
Roboslinger makes me think of the golfing machine, Iron Byron. My old golf coach said I had a swing like the Iron Byron, though my shots still go all over the place  Tongue
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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #11 - Apr 13th, 2018 at 7:07am
 
stick me down for design and 3d printing.
Not a robotics engineer - but fairly advanced 3d printer owner and builder.

One way to make cheap and consistent parts is to simply print them when and where they are needed.
.stl files are pretty small and easy to email. much easier and cheaper than posting actual parts.

Sounds like a fun project Smiley

As far as sensors and the like goes.
What platform you thinking of using ?
r-pi 3's are cheap and pretty comprehensive.
But plenty of other mini-system boards around now.

The size is going to be the trickeist part. Have to determine maximum length sling and arm length.
The rest of it's going to be fairly compact. But arm length is crucial.

Can I suggest aluminium 2020 extrusion for the arm. Lightweight, cheap, readily available and much more rigid than a tube.
Also a ridiculous amount of screws. bolts brackets etc readily available - and cheap. 

Oh yeah I'll sticky this thread.
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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
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NooneOfConsequence
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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #12 - Apr 13th, 2018 at 9:59am
 
Thanks CA!
I’m thinking about what you’re saying about extruded aluminum, and it brings up a broader point: Some people may be better at building with lumber, others can weld, and others may have a pile of extruded aluminum already sitting around the house.
At this point we don’t know what is best, but we also don’t care as long as it performs well, so maybe we aim for a performance specification instead of a specific design. Let people build it from whatever they want. If you can achieve the precision and repeatability with a trebuchet built out of Legos... why not?

If there is a large enough crowd involved, then we can make it more like a competition to see what design gets the best performance. I suspect that over time a good design will naturally emerge if people are competing.

In the short term, I think we should start with one Roboslinger (which means we still have to decide on materials), but that prototype can be used as a reference design to develop a spec and to develop the rules of a competition when we are ready to bring in a wider audience. A competition only helps with the performance part of the equation anyway, not the instrumentation or data piece of the problem, but it would be a great way to get lots of people involved and interested in slinging.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #13 - Apr 13th, 2018 at 10:41am
 
What about adapting a trap thrower?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BbUrWn7DZk

It might be easier (and cheaper) to adapt an existing machine than to design and build a a rig from scratch.
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Shale

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Re: Roboslinger!
Reply #14 - Apr 13th, 2018 at 12:15pm
 
It's a good idea.

But by the time you'd modified it with electronics, longer arm - sling holder and sensors.
It's probably simpler and cheaper to start from scratch.

Does raise the question though, how are we powering the arm ?
Weights or - like the trap - a spring ?

For consistency the spring might be the better option. Also makes a more compact machine than a falling weight.

The basic mechanics of a trebuchet are pretty simple.
Far more interested in sensors - what, where and why ? Smiley   

Might be best to start with a specific list of what you actually want to measure.
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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
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