Slinging.org Forum - Knuckledusters

perpetualstudent

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Knuckledusters
Jan 8^th, 2015 at 9:19am

Mangudai brought this up in the karambit thread, specifically about the WWI allied Trench Knives. Here in the US at least- you can own knuckle dusters with minimal fuss (and they are easy enough to fabricate) but CARRYING them is a big no-no. A no-no that can land you in prison for a year in most areas. State and local ordances are long standing and updated in many cases (plastic knuckles specifically forbidden).

Legality aside- we'll reside entirely in the hypothetical here and nothing posted is to be taken as encouragement to break the law- what are your impressions and speculations of these weapons?

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Curious Aardvark Forum Moderation Offline Taller than the average Dwarf Posts: 13965 Midlands England Gender:	Re: Knuckledusters Reply #1 - Jan 8^th, 2015 at 12:02pm I printed some bear claws for pulling pork. They'd be nasty duckle nusters !
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Bill Skinner

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Re: Knuckledusters
Reply #2 - Jan 8^th, 2015 at 1:03pm

C_A, are you trying to steal Timpa's thunder?

The problem with knucks and karambits is someone with a long stick can beat you to death without you being able to land a blow.

A karambit was a self defense weapon, not much good for offense unless jump on the guy to grapple. And for offense, there are lots better weapons out there.

Sorta same for knucks, which makes them pretty good for mugging somebody, they are good for getting in close, sticking your hand in your pocket and coming out with those for a surprise punch. And you can't cut a seat belt or clothing with knucks, so it doesn't make them a very good EMT tool.

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Curious Aardvark Forum Moderation Offline Taller than the average Dwarf Posts: 13965 Midlands England Gender:	Re: Knuckledusters Reply #3 - Jan 8^th, 2015 at 1:30pm no but they are fun - and I could make some really nice plastic ones If you ever get in a situation where you absolutely have to hit someone up close. And i haven't managed it yet. Then electrified knuckle dusters would be great Seen them on telly at some point.
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Thearos

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Re: Knuckledusters
Reply #4 - Jan 8^th, 2015 at 1:53pm

May I quote E. André, who wrote "L'art de la défence dans la rue" (1900)

"A good boxer has no need for a knuckleduster. The bones of the hand are sufficient for such blows and they can already strike vulnerable areas with the force and precision required. But it is obvious that a man who only knows how to punch poorly or fairly badly will find it a useful additional impetus to his attack when he uses one."

BUT also note, from a recent post on Victorian Martial Arts, the bartitsu specialist J. Marwood saying: "The problem with brass knuckles is not their weight or effectiveness (They are very effective) but how easily they can be accessed. It is very hard to get your hand in a pocket, put on the knuckles and bring them to bear when in a fight. If you're looking to pre-empt then they're usable, but if you're able to pre-empt you don't need a weapon. If you're not then you need something more easily accessed, IMO."

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Arcane Tinker

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Re: Knuckledusters
Reply #5 - Jan 8^th, 2015 at 4:03pm

Any weapon should be as seamless of an extension of your body as possible. The more ergonomic, the better. A sand cast brass hunk designed for mass production does not do this well. I have tried on many a pair and found them constrictive awkward, and even promoted poor fist position. They encourage you to lead with your middle and ring finger instead of your index and middle finger, which IMHO makes your wrist more susceptible to injury. I find it fitting that most vendors sell them as paper weights.

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timpa Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Stones in the horizon Posts: 1511 Finland	Re: Knuckledusters Reply #6 - Jan 8^th, 2015 at 5:33pm Curious Aardvark wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 12:02pm: They'd be nasty duckle nusters ! I have not thought that the rest of the world, as in Finland is the "words turn".
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Tomas Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Posts: 2166	Re: Knuckledusters Reply #7 - Jan 8^th, 2015 at 7:03pm Arcane is right- most of them aren't made well. I've seen a couple nice pairs with some heft to them and they are fearsome. I've also been hit by fists with large rings and still have scars 10 years later..... I can imagine my face would be broken if it had been knuckles instead
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perpetualstudent

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Re: Knuckledusters
Reply #8 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 9:17am

I tend to slightly disagree with your quote theoros- about the bones of the hand. There's a reason we don't do bare knuckle boxing anymore. With good technique you can easily get a "Boxer's break". The gloves aren't there to protect the face- they're there to keep your hands protected.

The other quote makes some sense. Still I think that there would be real advantages to well made knuckles. It would protect knuckles, keep you from mixing blood, could be used for pain compliance techniques, and scales the force continuum very neatly- all the way from "soft" techniques to potentially lethal force depending on where and how hard you hit. Also punching is fairly instinctive (though certainly benefits from training). Also darn near impossible to have it taken away from you.

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Bikewer

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Re: Knuckledusters
Reply #9 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 9:55am

Over at Bladeforums, there are a number of collectors. We get a lot of inquiries about actually using them and I always point out that they are generally illegal to carry.
Much like "switchblades" and certain other weapons, these became associated with thugs and gangsters.
The sort of thing you'd use to "tool up" the store owner who wouldnt' "pay the vig".

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perpetualstudent

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Re: Knuckledusters
Reply #10 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 10:37am

The legality is interesting, especially because there is near national prohibition against carrying knucks of any sort- but all those laws are at the municipal, county, and state level. Getting that sort of agreement nationally at local levels is impressive. I agree with you Bikewer it's because they were associated with lower classes and gangs. Particularly in NYC they were used in the real gang warfare back in the 1800's. My understanding is they were also associated with drifters and sailors.

So today any discussion is academic (as I noted at the beginning of the thread) but I am slightly saddened by those laws because I could see these tools being very useful for self defense purposes. I can't (and don't) carry them because of legalities but these seem more aimed at groups of people rather than the merits of the object.

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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."

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Bill Skinner Forum Moderation Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 3292	Re: Knuckledusters Reply #11 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 10:49am What Thearos quoted was state of the art for the time it was printed. Real boxers had knobby knuckles and weird looking ears. We have learned a lot since boxing became a sport.
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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3398	Re: Knuckledusters Reply #12 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 12:52pm Yes, I've read some old-timey boxing and jiu-jitsu. Bare knuckle boxers do know about the risk of breaking their hands, but also don't like to block with their fists.
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perpetualstudent

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Re: Knuckledusters
Reply #13 - Jan 11^th, 2015 at 5:03pm

Any good recommendations Thearos? Particularly for bare knuckles training/boxing?

I'd heard that some MMA fighters were experimenting with the old fashioned boxing stance. Hands chest level, palms up, ahead of the main body, as it gave some advantages for fights not as constrained as rules ad boxing has become.

Back on topic- in manga/comic books periodically you'll see knucks that aren't gripped in the hand, but are attached to the forearm and extend past the knuckles. Either on the sides of the hand, or flipping over the back of the hand. I don't know if these are anything other than theoretical but as long as we're discussing the theoretical I thought I'd mention it Grin

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Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3398	Re: Knuckledusters Reply #14 - Jan 12^th, 2015 at 7:04am http://www.pugilism.org (mostly for pay, but there are some free books, and some interesting articles) (There are manuals online, such as the one below) http://www.scribd.com/doc/60203458/The-Art-and-Practice-of-Boxing-by-the-Celebra...
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