Slinging.org Forum - Lobbing vs. Throwing

Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3417	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #90 - Nov 24^th, 2013 at 7:06pm egg-sactly
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Thearos

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #91 - Nov 24^th, 2013 at 7:21pm

Momentum, then.

Whanger slings 80 g stone, velocity on arrival 48 m/s, momentum is 3.84 k m/s

Lobber slings 200g stone, velocity on arrival 36 m/s, momentum is 7.2 k m/s.

OK, maybe the figures are not right for the lobber. Let's stay he's lobbing a 150g stone, with a speed of 24 m/s on arrival, momentum is then 3.60 k m/s, so about the same as the whanger.

If the lobber slings with a 160g stone and a terminal velocity of 30m/s, the momentum is already 4.8.

Lob and crash. That, too, is the way of the sling, as well as zippy straight shots.

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squirrelslinger Interfector Viris Spurii Offline peace through superior firepower Posts: 2870 Ky, USA Gender:	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #92 - Nov 24^th, 2013 at 7:56pm zippy straight shots are better IMO for long range target, precision shooting, and destroying/puncturing stuff. much better with pointy lead glans... lobbing sooo much better for rocks, large targets, knocking over stuff....
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jlasud Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Programming stones Posts: 2358 Transilvania Gender:	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #93 - Nov 25^th, 2013 at 1:02am The clay balls From the Enlaka roman fort were ~ 120 grams (my favourite intermediary ammo,or general ammo) and 200g bashers. Also a very nice weight,for mid-close range hard hitting. 200g with 40 m/s is absolutely doable to launch. On ..say 50m,arriving with 35m/s is possible and not extreme at all.IMO
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Thearos

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #94 - Nov 25^th, 2013 at 5:10am

Let's talk historical, militarized slinging.

A slinger in combat range-- he has two possible types of targets. One is light infantry in the skirmishing line, people like him-- guys with wicker shields and javelins, archers crouching behind bushes, other slingers. You shoot straight and light: your target is moving around, and unarmoured, the fast shot allows to reach out and touch him. You whang.

The other type of target is a line of heavy infantry, armoured, with big shields, wearing helmets. They're not going anywhere in a hurry. You want heavy ammo, and you don't mind if the flight time is a bit slower and even if the stone lands a bit off-- momentum is what matters. You lob.

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Dan

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #95 - Nov 25^th, 2013 at 9:30am

I'm going to introduce a third concept here. I know with self bows, they have a certain ideal arrow weight so that they can utilize all of their energy (light arrows may result in hand shock and a 'loud' bow), usually this is around 10 grains per pound of draw weight. Obviously an arrow that I way too heavy (like a log) won't go very far at all.

There has to be a balance. Personally, I see lobbing akin to half-drawing a bow and shooting an arrow that's way to heavy (which obviously doesn't utilize the bow as well as it could be utilized), so my balance leans towards straight throwing. However, I would think just straight throwing with a heavier rock (egg to large egg sized) would be better than having to learn to sling two different ways. Most slingers, when they switch ammunition weights, will have to readjust their trained release timing.

Slinging is hard enough as it is, I think a compromise leaning towards straight throwing is the best option if you are looking for maximum KE and accuracy. If you just sling for enjoyment or because its awesome, then it doesn't really matter what you do.

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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.

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English_Marauder Descens Offline Balearic Slinger Posts: 229 Canada Gender:	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #96 - Nov 25^th, 2013 at 10:10am well said Dan.
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Masiakasaurus past-moderator Offline mah-SEE-a-kah-SOR-us Posts: 6069 Alabama, USA Gender:	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #97 - Nov 25^th, 2013 at 10:37am You're thinking of lobbing wrong. Lobbing is aiming high and making the stone drop. If you want to translate it to archery, lobbing is a normal and comfortable shot that's going to arc more with more distance and whanging is overdrawing the bow for distance shots and using Turkish flight arrows.
Back to top	Pikåru wrote on Nov 19^th, 2013 at 6:59pm: Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. ~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~ IP Logged

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #98 - Nov 25^th, 2013 at 8:23pm

Masiakasaurus wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 10:37am:

You're thinking of lobbing wrong. Lobbing is aiming high and making the stone drop. If you want to translate it to archery, lobbing is a normal and comfortable shot that's going to arc more with more distance and whanging is overdrawing the bow for distance shots and using Turkish flight arrows.

I respectfully still completely disagree. I've seen professional lobbers, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQJv0LJqd9Y, and I've lobbed myself. Its not comfortable at all (in fact for me, its down right unnatural), its intentionally less powerful, similar to short drawing, but the arc and energy is made a little more significant with heavier ammunition.

If I was throwing comfortably at anything less than 40 yards and aiming high, I'd be throwing high too.

Arcing in is for long distance, when you have to and you are still slinging 'hard' to utilize all the sling's potential energy.

There is a fine line between 'over-slinging' like a madman and strong flat-lining like EM, Yurek, and myself would do.

While lobbing can produce good results, I'm still pretty sure straight controlled slinging is the best way to sling.

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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.

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English_Marauder Descens Offline Balearic Slinger Posts: 229 Canada Gender:	Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing Reply #99 - Nov 25^th, 2013 at 11:40pm And Dan comes in with a big hit to the jaw. POW. KO for Lobbing. 7 pages later....
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #100 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 12:55am

English_Marauder wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 11:40pm:

And Dan comes in with a big hit to the jaw. POW. Shocked

KO for Lobbing.

7 pages later....

It ain't over till the fat lady sings.

Dan wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 8:23pm:

While lobbing can produce good results, I'm still pretty sure straight controlled slinging is the best way to sling.

And I still respectfully disagree. To continue the archery metaphor, you don't -or shouldn't- use all your strength to pull back the bow. If it takes all you've got to draw your bow to anchor then you're overbowed and it will negatively effect your technique. Nor should you try to get more power with a floating anchor point that changes based on target distance. Same for the difference between lobbing versus whanging in slinging. If you aren't using absolutely everything you've got and you aren't changing the strength with which you sling, you're lobbing. Changing the force with which you sling changes the speed of the sling's rotation and changes release timing. The better way to aim at targets at different distances is to learn to adjust your aim instinctively rather than adjust your power just like instinctive shooting in archery.

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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all.
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~

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Thearos

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #101 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 4:53am

To restate what I tried to show int he previous pages: whanging does not necessarily generate more KE or momentum than lobbing, and lobbing generates a lot of impact. It also allows for accurate shot placement.

Some people can lob quite well, but feel awkward doing it-- hence the forced archery analogy. I fear its main function is to provide psychological cover for the real anxiety: that lobbing is somehow less manly than full-on whanging.

It's nice to be able to do both well. I can. You should.

And here's a fine picture of point blank straight shooting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4b4NhUqlH0&list=UUmlzXXkU-ofs7aO-DVqm1mA&index=8...

(which does not mean that lobbing heavy shots at longer distances isn't good, too).

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English_Marauder

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #102 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 8:43am

Masiakasaurus,
"And I still respectfully disagree. To continue the archery metaphor, you don't -or shouldn't- use all your strength to pull back the bow. If it takes all you've got to draw your bow to anchor then you're overbowed and it will negatively effect your technique"

I don't believe the bow analogy was meant to be about a maxing of user input. But rather using the full potential of the weapon.

example.

you wouldn't half draw a bow in order to achieve an arching shot.

Or if you found that the arrows that you were using were to heavy(shots lacked speed) for x bow. you would lighten the arrow to gain speed.

Back to slings.
If I was using rocks of a weight that I could not achieve good flat shots out of my 30" sling, I would do one of two things. one, lengthen my sling. two use lighter rocks. for me under powering a rock intentionally is not an option.

side note. I knew that last comment would draw a certain Masi back to this. Wink

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Masiakasaurus

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #103 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 10:59am

English_Marauder wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 8:43am:

I don't believe the bow analogy was meant to be about a maxing of user input. But rather using the full potential of the weapon.

You're right, but I don't see your point. The lobbing side keeps saying that you maximize the potential of the sling by lobbing and that whanging is either throwing too hard and sacrificing technique or throwing a stone lighter than necessary and sacrificing terminal ballistics. I already addressed the effect of a lighter stone than necessary, now I've addressed throwing harder than necessary. Using another person's metaphor and changing the terms to show that it can mean something different is a part of debate.

English_Marauder wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 8:43am:

You wouldn't half draw a bow in order to achieve an arching shot.

Or if you found that the arrows that you were using were to heavy(shots lacked speed) for x bow. you would lighten the arrow to gain speed.

Right, again. But you're just reiterating Dan's point in the same terms he did. Dan said lobbing was like half drawing and whanging was getting to anchor, I said that lobbing is getting to anchor and whanging is either using Turkish flight arrows (too light to be effective) and/or overdrawing. Because I keep saying that lobbing has already maximized the potential of the weapon. The exception would be at point blank range -however long or short that is- where a lobbed stone would have to fly very high but not very far or it would have to be so underthrown as to barely impact the target.

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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all.
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~

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Dan

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #104 - Nov 26^th, 2013 at 11:42am

This may be one of the best debates we've had actually regarding slinging. Good work guys.

"Whanging" is really an unnecessarily derogatory term for strong controlled slinging.
No one would say that myself, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ65qYFKcwQ
EM, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCM2PKlRcZw
or Yurek, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY6jkEa57V8

are slinging uncontrollably with the shots going in every direction because of our ridiculously over-powered throws. Its just not true, the evidence is in favor of straight throwing being the best way to utilize the sling in accuracy and power. There's no sacrifice of anything, just proper utilization of a weapon that relies on the user for its power.

If straight throwing required throwing pebbles or air soft BBs, your Turkish flight arrow analogy might be more appropriate. But it doesn't. I can straight throw any reasonable weight (3-8oz, maybe more too but I haven't really had the motivation to try before) sling stone with no difficulty. So your argument that straight throwing requires ammunition too light to be effective (like "Turkish flight arrows") is invalid.

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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.

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Poll
Question: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Lobbing 6 (10.3%) Throwing (flatlining) 23 (39.7%) Both have their place 27 (46.6%) I like to kick rocks..... 2 (3.4%) Total votes: 58 « Last Modified by: TheSlingin-Injun on: Nov 18^th, 2013 at 9:20am »