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Question: Lobbing vs. Throwing

Lobbing    
  6 (10.3%)
Throwing (flatlining)    
  23 (39.7%)
Both have their place    
  27 (46.6%)
I like to kick rocks.....    
  2 (3.4%)




Total votes: 58
« Last Modified by: TheSlingin-Injun on: Nov 18th, 2013 at 9:20am »

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Lobbing vs. Throwing (Read 82702 times)
Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #60 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:16pm
 
Still, let us say that the straight shooter reaches a speed of 50 m/s. The KE is 100 J. Greater than the lobbed shot at 200g, but by 10 J. Same point remains about the power of the lobbed shot.
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #61 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:19pm
 
Momentum, momentum, OK.
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Pikåru
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #62 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:27pm
 
Thearos wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:16pm:
Still, let us say that the straight shooter reaches a speed of 50 m/s. The KE is 100 J. Greater than the lobbed shot at 200g, but by 10 J. Same point remains about the power of the lobbed shot.


The answer is simple. It's PURPLE because aliens don't wear hats on the roof when playing strip poker.
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #63 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:28pm
 
Thearos wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:19pm:
Momentum, momentum, OK.


My point was that the equation for kinetic energy overemphasizes the role of velocity in terminal ballistics and makes it easy to discount the effect produced by varying the mass of the projectile. I wasn't trying to correct you.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #64 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:53pm
 
No, Masia., I didn't take it as a correction, just reminding myself of what you wrote (because it looked like I was ignoring your post).

What I wanted to say with all my posts: lobbing heavier stones a bit more slowly is a useful skill and a legitimate way of slinging. It can allow for good accuracy. You should not feel that it's somehow not "real" slinging or a betrayal of the nature of the weapon, because it generates good power.
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #65 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 9:33pm
 
I agree pik. It is PURPLE Grin
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #66 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 4:38am
 
On figures, I took as a baseline for the straight shooter 48 m/s and 80 g stone. The lobber's power I dialled down to 75% of that, to 36 m/s, and gave him a big smasher of a stone. This setup is quite realistic, I think, and the lobber generates a lot of power, and figures for momentum might be even more in his favour. I insisted on this because the results were surprising even to me.

But you could also choose to have both shooters using the same stone, and the wangler going at 57 m/s (dropping to e.g. 53 m/s on impact) and the lobber going at 32 m/s (dropping to 28 m/s on impact). The whanger gets KE= 140J, the lobber 39J. But all that say is that if you shoot fast, you get more energy into the shot-- which no one contests.
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squirrelslinger
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #67 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 3:59pm
 
here is my theory- its GREEN, not purple
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Tomas
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #68 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 7:01pm
 
Ok so all these formulas..... Yuck!
Let's talk trauma. I bet a speeding glande makes a much different wound than lobbing a fist sized stone. The question is, which one is more fatal? Against armor? Without armor?
Let's say one is just as accurate as the other
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #69 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 7:08pm
 
Masia. has thoughts on this. I'd like to read them.
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #70 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 8:19pm
 
Long version: (Sorry, I can't really make this not seem technical without taking too many details out and making my description wrong.) According to scattering theory in particle mechanics, the momentum-transfer cross section describes the radiation resulting from a collision -including particle radiation and the deflection of particles in the material of the target. Depending on how elastic of a material the target is it can absorb different amounts of kinetic energy before shattering or tearing and may even return to its original shape, but that deformation is a kind of wound itself in a living target. The deformation and the type of injury caused is irrelevant, though. The important thing is that more momentum means more damage to a living target in almost every instance. The damage is caused by a force -and therefore energy- but using the kinetic energy of the projectile to model impact force neglects the fact that elastic collisions do not conserve energy and that every collision is elastic to some degree. There are a few instances where a very larger cross sectional area, an impact at a very acute angle relative to the target, or a collision that occurs over a longer period of time will affect the momentum transfer, but they don't apply to us. A projectile's momentum at the time of impact is the best way to quantify the damage caused by a projectile without actually trying to calculate the damage. And I don't want to try that, it's doctorate level mathematics.

Shorter version: There's a math theory that describes how radiation travels after a crash. These radiating waves are what cause damage to a target and they're mostly cause by the momentum of the projectile. We don't live in a perfect world and that sometimes isn't enough to describe the damage all by itself, but we luckily don't have to worry about that to have a functional model. Plus, the math for that is over my head. The projectile with more momentum will be the most physically damaging.


Keep in mind, dead is dead and "more dead" is still just dead. The math doesn't say whether a small, fast projectile will break the skin or whether a large, heavy one will cause internal bleeding. This only models straight tissue damage.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #71 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 8:34pm
 
In short, Masiakasaurus hasn't been out hunting much.

speed equals death. Wink
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #72 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 8:36pm
 
English_Marauder wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 8:34pm:
In short, Masiakasaurus hasn't been out hunting much.

speed equals death. Wink

I challenge you to shoot a deer with a fast and straight .17 Hornet and another with an arcing .45-70 government. You'll come around to my way of thinking.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
WWW elsabio04  
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #73 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 8:48pm
 
Have you ever shot a deer??? Grin

I know I have, and I've also put a lot of different rounds through a lot of different animals.

when you dredge up reloading data for 45-70 the round can be made quite fast. when store bought 45-70 have very poor penetration.
bad example. in my opinion of course.  Smiley
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Thearos
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #74 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 8:55pm
 
Jaegoor, who lobs, killed a deer with his slinging technique-- lobbing heavy stones.
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