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Question: Lobbing vs. Throwing

Lobbing    
  6 (10.3%)
Throwing (flatlining)    
  23 (39.7%)
Both have their place    
  27 (46.6%)
I like to kick rocks.....    
  2 (3.4%)




Total votes: 58
« Last Modified by: TheSlingin-Injun on: Nov 18th, 2013 at 9:20am »

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Lobbing vs. Throwing (Read 80361 times)
English_Marauder
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #30 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 4:23pm
 
Teg wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 3:55pm:
Thearos wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 6:06am:
Note that the point is not whether a lobbed shot is as powerful as a whanged shot-- of course not. The point is whether a lobbed shot is powerful enough, as it drops, to inflict harm when it hits. Which it is.


I agree too.

Marauder: You are very often talking about "maximal energy". Please consider that in the formula there are two variables: Mass and velocity. You don't have to increase the speed if you increase the weight.
For me it's much easier to increase the weight of my stones than the speed I'm doing my movements with. Timing is less of a question and I can maintain a similar accuracy. Maximizing speed (= maximizing distance) doesn't play a big role as you will hunt on distances as close as possible. Further the "lobbed" throw will be (more) silent.

For many people what messes up the accuracy when they "whang" is, that they are "forcing" their throw or that they make their movements faster than they can control it. Jaegoor told me this the first time and I experienced this many times with myself and while teaching slinging to other people. So if you "take back" your force, you will do your movements at a speed that you can control. Not the energy you put into your throw is the problem. It is the speed or the timing of your movements.

If their technique is fine, they can then put their full power in a heavy stone, which will fly slow and make a high arc but carry a devastating force and hit accurately.

One last physical and also more theoretical point: The velocity is squared in the expression of the kinetic energy. Therefore if you can't manage your shots at full power and have to slow your movements a bit, it is better to take heavy stones and therefore do slower movements as the impact on the "total energy" will be smaller of this decrease of movement velocity.





K=1/2mxv squared

when you plug the numbers in to this basic formula you will notice that velocity plays a much bigger role in producing energy than mass. mass contributes by a coefficient of 1/2
while velocity contributes by its square. Wink

What I am trying to say is, that when you are "lobbing" at a somewhat constant velocity increasing the weight of your projectile even by double is not actually producing that much more power. actually you are probably producing a lot less power using the bigger stone, as the bigger stone is probably travailing at a lower velocity.

In end. increasing the weight of the projectile without increasing the velocity, does not give you much if any(depending on whether the shot slowed down do to increasing the weight) extra Kinetic energy/destructive power.
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #31 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 4:45pm
 
quote Teg,
"One last physical and also more theoretical point: The velocity is squared in the expression of the kinetic energy. Therefore if you can't manage your shots at full power and have to slow your movements a bit, it is better to take heavy stones and therefore do slower movements as the impact on the "total energy" will be smaller of this decrease of movement velocity"

In my opinion, with respect. It is bad practice to limit the weapons potential based on not being able to control the power that is potentially being produced. learn to master the faster movements/ reflexes it takes to control powerful shots. Smiley
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #32 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 5:07pm
 
English_Marauder wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 4:23pm:
K=1/2mxv squared

when you plug the numbers in to this basic formula you will notice that velocity plays a much bigger role in producing energy than mass.

This statement is correct.
Quote:
mass contributes by a coefficient of 1/2
while velocity contributes by its square. Wink

This statement is wrong. Mass contributes linearly, while velocity by its square. The factor 1/2 applies to both the mass and the velocity.

Quote:
What I am trying to say is, that when you are "lobbing" at a somewhat constant velocity increasing the weight of your projectile even by double is not actually producing that much more power. actually you are probably producing a lot less power using the bigger stone, as the bigger stone is probably travailing at a lower velocity.

In end. increasing the weight of the projectile without increasing the velocity, does not give you much if any(depending on whether the shot slowed down do to increasing the weight) extra Kinetic energy/destructive power. 


I disagree.

Your statement is: I can easily increase my movement speed to increase my energy, while maintaining the same accuracy. Here I disagree. I get a lower accuracy as I do my movements faster.
My statement is: I can increase my energy if I take heavier stones, but keep my movements at a constant speed. This keeps my accuracy.
I can double the weight of my projectile.
If I would keep the the weight constant I would have to increase my velocity by a factor of sqrt(2)= 1.41 to achieve the same energy. I am not able to increase my movement speed by this factor while maintaining my accuracy.

The target of my reasoning was how to proceed to maximize energy (which I think is the target of your reasoning) and accuracy (without which power is useless) from a given starting point: Someone who is able to throw accurate but not full power at a target.

My main point is: Don't focus only on speed. There is also weight. Don't think black and white. There is also grey. Trying to increase speed is not wrong. I also try it. But only trying to maximize speed is also not the perfect way to maximize energy while maintining accuracy.

But as Thearos pointed out: The question is if the "lobbed" shot is powerful enough to inflict harm. And yes, it is in my opinion.


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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #33 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 5:10pm
 
If we would talk only about maximizing energy I would completely agree with you. Focus on speed. But we also want to be accurate. And this is the point where I think your argument fails.
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #34 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 5:33pm
 
English_Marauder wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 4:45pm:
quote Teg,
"One last physical and also more theoretical point: The velocity is squared in the expression of the kinetic energy. Therefore if you can't manage your shots at full power and have to slow your movements a bit, it is better to take heavy stones and therefore do slower movements as the impact on the "total energy" will be smaller of this decrease of movement velocity"

In my opinion, with respect. It is bad practice to limit the weapons potential based on not being able to control the power that is potentially being produced. learn to master the faster movements/ reflexes it takes to control powerful shots. Smiley


Grin No offense taken, but I think we misunderstand each other in this last comment. I don't want to say: Limit yourself to low power because you can't master high power. Sure, go for the max! Do your best!
I wanted to say: There are also other ways to "accurate high power". And for me there is not only one way to "accurate high power". And I think the math with which I wanted to express it did not translate very well into english words. I'm not a native speaker. I could express it with formulas but I fear then at least half of the readers would no longer understand it. Please forget this last comment.
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #35 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 7:36pm
 
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/mmedia/vectors/mr.cfm

Mortar rounds are launched between 45 and 60 deg. with 45 being the angle that gives the maximum distance.

My best range is with a fig. 8 throw with an earlier release which launches as near 45 deg. as I can. This kind of throw would be very effective throwing stones or glands over a wall into enemy lines.
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #36 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 8:02pm
 
quote Teg
"This statement is wrong. Mass contributes linearly, while velocity by its square. The factor 1/2 applies to both the mass and the velocity."

I have do disagree with this.
               

Proper example base line.

KE= 1/2(2kg)(2m/s)^2

KE=  (1)(4)= 4 J


double mass/ velocity constant.

KE= 1/2(
4
kg)(2m/s)^2

KE= (2)(4)= 8J

double velocity/ mass constant

KE= 1/2(2kg)(
4
m/s)^2

KE= (1)(16) = 16J

Therefore this proves that mass does NOT act linearly. Wink Velocity increases kinetic energy exponentially faster than mass. Mass simply contributes by a much lesser factor.

simple terms. mass is not as important as velocity when it come to getting the job done. whatever done is. Grin 

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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #37 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 2:17am
 
From English_Marauder:
Quote:
Proper example base line.

KE= 1/2(2kg)(2m/s)^2

KE=  (1)(4)= 4 J


double mass/ velocity constant.

KE= 1/2(4kg)(2m/s)^2

KE= (2)(4)= 8J

-----
So you double the mass and you double  kinetic energy, the velocity being held constant. Surely that makes it linear in mass?

I think Teg is unduly optimistic anticipating only one half of the readers would stop once the math started flowing - nearer 9/10 Grin. However, some of us will keep reading so go ahead Wink
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #38 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:55am
 
Aussie, too, would have been pleased by the continuation of maths and physics.

Note the two type of combat ammo known from the ancient world: very light (ca. 30-35g, sometimes lighter), specially shaped lead bullets, and "hand-filling" stones which might have weighed 200g.

Now, people will correct me easily with this, but let's assume shooting at a combat range (see separate thread) of 80 m.

Shooter A has lead and is shooting straight at high velocity. Projectile weight, 0.03kg, proj. velocity 50m/s-- I assume the same velocity at arrival. KE= 37.5 Joules

Shooter B has a big stone, lobbing. Proj weight 0.2 (200g). Proj. velocity at pouch, 38 m/s. Now velocity is lost because of friction, but some of it is regained because the proj. rises and fall. I ASSUME, but with no clear idea if this is right, that at target, the velocity is half, so 19m/s KE= 36.1 joules. If the velocity conservation is better than half, say 24m/s, the KE is 57.6 J.

Does this make sense, or am I barking up the wrong tree ?
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« Last Edit: Nov 19th, 2013 at 12:02pm by Thearos »  
 
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #39 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:10am
 
OK, but what about with stones ?

Shooter A shoots straight and fast. Let us admit that he shoots with a 80g stone, and that target velocity, from a start of 45ms, has dropped (this is not a bullet) to 41m/2 (an 8% loss). KE is 67 J

Shooter B lobs with a 200g stone, with a 35 m/s initial velocity, dropping by the same 8% to 32m/s. KE is 102J.

Does this look right ?
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #40 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:51am
 
This reminds me of the 5.56 NATO garbage. Worrying about only speed will get you a weak cartridge. It's going to be the same with a sling. You must worry about BOTH. Take the 7.62x51mm NATO for example. 2,733fps with a 147grain bullet. The 5.56 has over 3,000fps but only a 62 grain bullet. the 7.62 Has much more power than the 5.56.

Worry about both and stop fighting about which is better. By these examples though, the heavier bullet has the edge as long as it is not too slow.
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #41 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 8:20am
 
Thearos. I cannot comment on these examples as the math is way off. Definitely up the wrong tree.
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #42 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 9:51am
 
The maths comes from an online KE calculator. The question is whether my assumptions on velocity are off.
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #43 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:41am
 
Here:

http://www.csgnetwork.com/kineticenergycalc.html

So let's assume shooter A shoots pretty damn fast, 50m/s on  impact, with his 80g stone (just under size of an egg or so ?): 100J.

Shooter B, with his big ole stone, 200g, shoots at HALF that speed on arrival, 25m/s, 62.5J. Not the same as the fast guy, but not negligible. Dial it up to 30m/s and you get 90J. Same order of magnitude for power, but with 40% less velocity, and hence perhaps better control.
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Re: Lobbing vs. Throwing
Reply #44 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 11:58am
 
OK, but what if shooter A and shooter B are basically using the same stones, just shooting with different styles ?

Shooter A whangs a 100g stone at 48m/s. These heavy stones are good energy conservers, because they overcome drag (dixit Aussie). So at impact, let's say 45m/2. KE=106 J

Shooter B lobs carefully, at 75% of A, at 36m/s. The stone loses speed when it rises, gains some of it back because of drop, but lose some because of drag, though the stone's weight helps it overcome part of the the drag. Speed at impact, 33m/s. KE= 54 J.

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