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Figure eight vs helicopter based styles (Read 5522 times)
Masiakasaurus
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #15 - Aug 11th, 2013 at 10:20pm
 
Arcane Tinker wrote on Aug 11th, 2013 at 7:01pm:
I try and try..oh how I try to love figure 8. It looks so cool, it cancels cord twist, it makes lots of sense...my upper torso just does not want to cooperate. I am far too tight and inflexible for it to be accurate. All my shots are high and my windage is inconsistent.

Byzantine and Greek especially are my strong suits for explosive power and underhand is my go to technique for accuracy. ...weird huh?†


That's me to a T.
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PikŚru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #16 - Aug 12th, 2013 at 4:32am
 
Eww, underhand?!
You sicken me... Tongue
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #17 - Aug 12th, 2013 at 9:46am
 
Good. Smiley
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PikŚru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
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Arcane Tinker
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #18 - Aug 12th, 2013 at 11:01am
 
I prefer an artillery style attack.  With cestros, I could be Extreme lawn darts champion material.  Maybe I played too much EGA Bomb on DOS as a kid.
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #19 - Aug 12th, 2013 at 4:06pm
 
Underhand is my most accurate also. I get the best power from Balearic or Helicopter.
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The_Peltast
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #20 - Aug 12th, 2013 at 4:10pm
 
I personally find the Fig 8 more fluid and relaxing. It's the most efficient if done properly in my opinion for power/accuracy vs effort. It seems to be more timing than muscle force to get it right. That's just my experience though...
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #21 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 2:38pm
 

It took me a long time to 'get' the figure-8, but now it is probably my first choice. They key to getting it right is really dynamic body movement. Also, dont bend your elbow into the windup too much, leave your arm long so your hand covers lots of distance in a wide arc during the throw. Nowadays I bend my arm less than I did in this movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJjXXnDSB4s
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #22 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 5:30pm
 
figure 8.
I learned it about a week ago. I still use heli for close range accuracy, but fig 8 is rapidly gaining on it.
Nuff said.
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #23 - Aug 20th, 2013 at 10:47am
 
Have recently slung for the first time after having done about 250 hours of home maintenance (painting, etc...) and so my throwing shoulder is kind of not right and I have tingling in my fingers, etc...

I found the apache style to be the easiest on my shoulder, but the Fig 8 wasn't bad either although I noticed it in my shoulder on the first throw (only).  The apache is almost no-impact as far as I can tell.

It does seem that the Fig 8 does provide a lot more power.
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #24 - Jul 18th, 2021 at 9:28am
 
figure 8 is truly a fascinating style, since it allows me to use such thin slings equally well !
On the other hand whenever I get a beefy sling my instinct is to use balaeric. Whenever I get a very thin sling my instinct is to use figure 8 or Greek

When I use Figure 8 + ring finger loop it really gives me a most excellent point forward spiral spin, even on very thin and floppy slings and +200g stones.

but when I use Balaeric style with many rotations with the same very thin sling and stone the release becomes inconsistent due cord twist.

Figure 8 doesn't rotate the sling initially with a static arm. The whole throw is one fluid motion and the arm doesn't stop. This means that tension on the cords alone is enough for pouch angle control, and the cords themselves need not be stiff, and the sling can be very thin without problems, this is the greatest USP of figure 8 in my view.
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #25 - Jul 18th, 2021 at 4:08pm
 
Although I think most agree that more pliable slings work better with the fig-8 Ive yet to see anyone explain exactly why in such a way that we can reasonably accept the question as solved.

Such a basic thing and we dont really have a great answer. At least not one that Ive seen.
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #26 - Jul 19th, 2021 at 5:23am
 
Morphy wrote on Jul 18th, 2021 at 4:08pm:
Although I think most agree that more pliable slings work better with the fig-8 Ive yet to see anyone explain exactly why in such a way that we can reasonably accept the question as solved.

Such a basic thing and we dont really have a great answer. At least not one that Ive seen.


For me it feels like the muscles you use during fig-8 (shoulder a lot), are effective at producing high speed but can't deal with a high load. I've slung fig 8 with balearic slings before but I wouldn't do it with 200g rocks.

The sidearm (balearic) style of slinging I feel is more robust against high loads through your arm and shoulder, but perhaps does not produce as much speed as the very large action of the figure 8. Hence fig 8 can get more out of lighter and thinner slings and smaller ammo, whilst using such slings sidearm feel too light and too fast.

It's like different gears for different ammo weights.

The sling choice then naturally arises from the ammo choice.

Another point is the release type. Maybe it's just familiarity but I've never felt comfortable with figure 8 and a full hand release. A knot seems much better for that style
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #27 - Jul 19th, 2021 at 6:38am
 
JudoP wrote on Jul 19th, 2021 at 5:23am:
Morphy wrote on Jul 18th, 2021 at 4:08pm:
Although I think most agree that more pliable slings work better with the fig-8 Ive yet to see anyone explain exactly why in such a way that we can reasonably accept the question as solved.

Such a basic thing and we dont really have a great answer. At least not one that Ive seen.


For me it feels like the muscles you use during fig-8 (shoulder a lot), are effective at producing high speed but can't deal with a high load. I've slung fig 8 with balearic slings before but I wouldn't do it with 200g rocks.

The sidearm (balearic) style of slinging I feel is more robust against high loads through your arm and shoulder, but perhaps does not produce as much speed as the very large action of the figure 8. Hence fig 8 can get more out of lighter and thinner slings and smaller ammo, whilst using such slings sidearm feel too light and too fast.

It's like different gears for different ammo weights.

The sling choice then naturally arises from the ammo choice.

Another point is the release type. Maybe it's just familiarity but I've never felt comfortable with figure 8 and a full hand release. A knot seems much better for that style



I agree there is definitely different muscle groups involved. And itís true that thatís probably a big part of it. It certainly seems to define more of the specialty of each in terms of what itís best suited for, if nothing else.

I also think that the angle the sling makes next to the hand is probably much lower than a balearic sling with a side arm throw. This would account for the awkwardness when using very thick, stiff cords. And why a pliable sling just feels better even during the beginning of the throw.

So hereís another question:

If a side arm throw engages the core muscles more effectively is there any benefit to using the figure 8? I personally tend to think there is.

But one thing I donít like about it is the crossover. At the pull point you are on the far side of your body. That sling pouch is then going to crossover to the other side before release. Some slingers might assume that all that is affecting the throw is the mostly vertical movement of the pitch at release.

I donít think this is the case. The angular momentum during the crossover horizontally also translates to horizontal movement causing the pouch to sweep out too far past the throwing arm shoulder than a pure vertical pitch would seem to dictate. Is this making any sense at all? This would mean that when you pull vertically downwards into the final portion of the pitch the pouch is not making a straight up and down movement but itís starting more to the right of your throwing side shoulder and then sharply angling left and vertically down. Not only would this lower power some since you canít accelerate through sharp changes in direction as easily it also could cause pouch orientation issues and therefore spin issues. And Iíve definitely seen the spin issues so that part at least can happen for sure.

One potential way to fix this is to simply use a diagonal pitch, which might actually end up being the only way to fix it. But then we lose the benefit of a pure vertical pitch which leads me back to my original question of ďis there a benefit to the fig-8?Ē

Most importantly to me is it shows that no movement in a sling throw is isolated. If your wind-up is off position then it can lead to a pull point which is off, which then translates into a position that is slightly off in the pitch and then the release. Or it leads to you trying to fix position mid-throw which is a recipe for failure in imo. And this domino effect goes all the way back to your initial stance so nothing is separate in the sling throw.



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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #28 - Jul 19th, 2021 at 8:16am
 
Quote:
Or it leads to you trying to fix position mid-throw which is a recipe for failure in imo. And this domino effect goes all the way back to your initial stance so nothing is separate in the sling throw.


yeah, absolutely.
My biggest problem is actually thinking about the throw.
I generally find that the first dozen throws of any session are pretty much perfect, then I start thinking about what I'm doing and it all goes to hell.

I think the main reason people think sidearm is better for larger rocks, is mainly that you use shorter slings.
A standard sidearm throw just does not suit a long sling.

An overhead helicopter throw is more suited to a longer sling than a sidearm style, but still not as good as a fig 8 windup which suits longer slings much better.

The other thing to bear in mind is that the windup and the throw - are largely independant.

You can use a helicopter windup to vertical release (mainly what jaegoor uses) just as easily as you can use a helicopter windup to a more horizontal style release.

Likewise it's possible to use a fig 8 windup to a verticalm horizontal and - with a little joint gymnastics - even a an underarm release.
I admit the latter takes some thinking through - But it is doable.

The other main difference between a balaeric target style and fig 8 and helicopter is that the sling does very little work.

With styles that suit longer slings you find that the sling does a lot more work and the windup takes advantage of the slings very length.

The whole body, particularly the hips, legs and waist all contribute to accelerating the sling in a fig 8 throw.

Whereas with a shorter sling and a sidearm throw. The final effort emphasis is mainly on the elbow and arm, with a passing nod to the waist.

It's one reason you can throw fig 8 hard all day with barely a muscle twinge, but a long sidearm session will always make itself felt.
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Morphy
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Re: Figure eight vs helicopter based styles
Reply #29 - Jul 19th, 2021 at 10:56am
 
@CA- you and I have been pretty hardcore fig-8 users for a long time and that might have something to do with why so much of what youve said sounds familiar from my own experiences.

I agree fig-8 works great with long slings and takes hardly any force to get it out there. And a long sling actually also might solve the problem I proposed on the crossover. Ill have to look at that some more.

One thing I feel differently about is that while wind-up and throw are separate and its true that you can mix and match any pitch with the fig-8 wind up, I dont necessarily rhink the one doesnt affect the other. I think whatever you choose for your pitch angle is going to be affected to some extent by the pouch position as immediately before the pull point.

Now you may have not been referring to that but I figured I would put it out there.

Oh as far as the underhand fig-8 absolutely man. Have you tried starting the wind up on your figure 8 with the rotation in the opposite direction?

Puts you in a perfect position to pitch underhand. I would say this fig-8 could have serious target potential but damn that forward spin lol.
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