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Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank (Read 5385 times)
Rat Man
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Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Mar 8th, 2013 at 5:43pm
 
Is this fair?  Please remember to be respectful. 
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/08/us/california-gay-eagle-scout
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GeneralMushroom
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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #1 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 5:57pm
 
Well for starters:

Quote:
John Fenoglio, Scout executive for the Mount Diablo-Silverado Boy Scout Council, said the Eagle rank application from Ryan Andresen of Moraga, California, wasn't approved because of "membership standards," specifically "duty to God, avowed homosexuality, and the fact that he is now over 18 years of age."


And

Quote:
"The Eagle application was forwarded, by a volunteer, to the local council but it was not approved because this young man proactively stated that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God' and does not meet Scouting's membership requirements," Smith said. "Therefore, he is not eligible to receive the rank of Eagle."



It was apparently due to these 3 reasons, not just because he was "gay". The simple fact the news focused on that 1 aspect is evidence enough that they are looking to aggravate the situation.
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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #2 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 8:31pm
 
I think the media has some blame to share with this. No offense anyone, I am kinda young, but I have discussed this with parents, and this seems to be true. Being a Catholic, I personally do not believe in homosexuality, but that does not mean gay people have no rights. they are PEOPLE, NOT THINGS. They deserve to be treated as people. I know some people who are openly gay at my school, and they are completly normal. They act no different, and are all nice, normal people. I used to be  a Boy-scout, but I have had much less time for things such as it, and quit 3 years ago. Now, I am dissappointed, and I know multiple other people. One of my best friends is quitting Boy-Scouts(for unrelated reasons). I think that the media needs to tell the other reasons. Media is BIASED, people! Media is concerned with how many people listen/read/watch the media, not how good their info is. They care about making money. All media is biased to some degree, but some is less than others. Therefore the media will report what they think will get the most $$$. One major argument- A man murdered a baby in China(guys, please I saw this on news, I am not trying to criticise ANYONE) and it made the news. When do the thousands of babies that are killed each day by abortion make the news? This is just one good example, I hope no one took serious offense to it.
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Masiakasaurus
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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #3 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 9:46pm
 
The heart of the issue is whether or not the Boy Scouts is a faith based organization, and whether being exclusionary is the same as being persecutory. I err on the side of yes and no, respectively. Being faith based they have the right, in my opinion, to make belief in God a requirement of membership. Or at least keep the issue don't ask, don't tell. And being exclusionary they have a right to select their members based on any criteria they choose.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #4 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 10:27pm
 
If I was that kid, I would have left Boy Scouts long ago  Smiley
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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #5 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 10:29pm
 
Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Mar 8th, 2013 at 10:27pm:
If I was that kid, I would have left Boy Scouts long ago  Smiley
Greetings,
Mauro.

Dont even mention it, I know people who left boy scouts and are now....
I dont think it is approiate to post it, given C.A's rule from 8 to 80!
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“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #6 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 10:42pm
 
...lost in some wood?
They forgot to steal a compass?
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squirrelslinger
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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #7 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 11:27pm
 
Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Mar 8th, 2013 at 10:42pm:
...lost in some wood?
They forgot to steal a compass?
Greetings,
Mauro.

No. Totally wrong. Well, not totally.
Anyway. as in they now do bad things.

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“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #8 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 1:40am
 
  Their organization, their rules.  Too often the media and the so called victim themselves try and use something like I'm gay, I'm a woman, I'm ethnic, etc. just as a way to get their own way and it makes it look bad for the people who actually are legitimately being discriminated against and people don't take it seriously.  I'm pretty sure he didn't not get the badge because he's gay, but if he doesn't believe in god and the organization has it as a requirement then look no further.  My personal opinion on such things is that as long as you follow the teachings it doesn't matter what you believe, I am an agnostic, I don't really have belief in any specific religion but I see good and evil the teachings and members of all of them and I learn from that and live my life accordingly, you don't have to believe in god to lead a christian life and if there is a god he shouldn't require you to kiss his butt every sunday just to get get in heaven, just that you heed his warnings.  I've always thought church needed less praise and more learning, the reason for this being that they haven't updated it enough since the Feudal days when people were servants to the king.  As far as not believing in god to be in the boyscouts I personally think it shouldn't matter as long as he learns the teachings, I have even met ministers he don't believe in god but believe only in the good that the teachings can do.
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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #9 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 7:34am
 
LukeWebb wrote on Mar 9th, 2013 at 1:40am:
 Their organization, their rules.  Too often the media and the so called victim themselves try and use something like I'm gay, I'm a woman, I'm ethnic, etc. just as a way to get their own way and it makes it look bad for the people who actually are legitimately being discriminated against and people don't take it seriously.  I'm pretty sure he didn't not get the badge because he's gay, but if he doesn't believe in god and the organization has it as a requirement then look no further.


100% agree. Happens all the time.


Quote:
 My personal opinion on such things is that as long as you follow the teachings it doesn't matter what you believe, I am an agnostic, I don't really have belief in any specific religion but I see good and evil the teachings and members of all of them and I learn from that and live my life accordingly, you don't have to believe in god to lead a christian life and if there is a god he shouldn't require you to kiss his butt every sunday just to get get in heaven, just that you heed his warnings.  I've always thought church needed less praise and more learning, the reason for this being that they haven't updated it enough since the Feudal days when people were servants to the king.  As far as not believing in god to be in the boyscouts I personally think it shouldn't matter as long as he learns the teachings, I have even met ministers he don't believe in god but believe only in the good that the teachings can do.



That's another argument altogether.

I respect your opinion and understand it, however some of this appears to be said without understanding what it means to actually be a 'Christian' (Fun fact, it's thought that that term originated as an insult).


You're 100% correct, you do not need to believe in God to live a moral life, I'm sure we all know people like that. However, a Christian life is not what you'd expect.
Being a Christian does not mean you are good or perfect person. Far from it. There's a common misconception that being a good person gets you into heaven, but this simply isn't the case.

Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

God created us all with free will, as a relationship without it is completely empty and without meaning. If I wanted, I could make my laptop say 'I love you GeneralMushroom, I worship you, I'll do anything for you!', but I don't. (Really, I don't). Why? Because there's no point.

The danger of free will is that we have the option to say no, and this does happen.


Sin isn't just 'doing bad things'. It's an act of 'We think we know better than God, we'll do it our way'.

'Do not murder', actually, I think I will benefit from murdering someone, so I'll do it. Believing you're better off doing it your way than God's way, and this has a pretty good track record of not working out.

We believe that it is not good people that get into heaven, it is forgiven people. God knew the problem that we make mistakes, and that we aren't (for lack of a better word) good enough. That's why He directly intervened in the form of man. He came down to Earth Himself to fix the problem.

We believe Jesus is fully man and fully God. How this works, no-one knows (neither do we know why light acts as a particle and a wave, yet we believe that too). He lived what we would call a perfect life, suffered the most painful form of torture and death, took the judgement of our sins upon himself so that all who believe in him would have eternal life in heaven with God.

Romans 5:6-8
"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."


Living a Christian life is knowing, understanding and believing that Jesus died for YOU because He loves YOU so much. It has nothing to do with how many times you go to church or, 'kiss his ass'.

We praise him as a response to what he has done for us. Worship is the act of living a life that glorifies Him.
When I became a Christian in 2009, I wasn't a nice person. But through the grace of God and understanding what He has done for me, I try to live a life that emulates Christ as a response to what he did for me.
This is where the teaching comes on. It's about learning how to live the way God planned for us. None of that 'don't eat pork, get circumcised etc' from the old testament chapters like Leviticus. That was helpful advice from God about how to stay healthy and safe in an age of poor hygiene and hostile nations.

I'd recommend watching this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mSB46UcTEk


I know I've gone majorly off topic and I apologise for that, but I hope you've enjoyed reading it Smiley
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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #10 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 9:33am
 
  Partially true, but you can't just keep doing terrible things and being forgiven over and over again, to be forgiven you must be sincere in your wish to repent and follow the teachings of god henceforth.  A.k.a you gotta be good.  It is one of the big holes in particularly the catholic faith where a lot of really bad people end up using the forgiveness or "confessional" as a way to absolve themselves while doing very bad things, (that's why the mob loved going to church,) and while it is a wonderful tool to aid people who truly wish to go straight (guilt is a terrible thing,) it can get very out of hand, saying a few hail marys doesn't make up for killing a man in cold blood, but maybe going straight and helping others will eventually get you there.
  The other thing that Church does that is very valuable in society is it gives you a standard to live up to.  Without it there wouldn't be that status quo that you are expected to be.  Imagine if anybody could do anything they want without being judged by others, people would do a lot of verry strange things!  While even without church you would still have that it facilitates it further and makes you feel guilty for doing bad things.  Try going to church after sleeping with the neighbors wife and everyone knowing...
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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #11 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 12:55pm
 
Well, are they a private organisation? If so, to my understanding the rules allow them to have their own requirements for the organization. Regardless of how unfair and preposterous they are, they can do it. I'm not sure about how the U.S. legal system entirely works, since it seems organisations, even if private, do have to obey certain laws varying by state. Someone with more info, what exactly is up with all those laws about not discriminating based on XXX, where do those apply and not?

And I'm willing to let them. It's that silly thing with us Americans seeming to value freedom and understand in a different sense than you other people. Or maybe it's capitalism and the whole "profit". But that isn't boy scouts.

I strongly disagree on that principle the Boy Scouts currently have about god, but that's them.  It sucks, but you change minds with education and reason, not laws. Give it time, young people are growing up, hopefully they see the error in ways of judging people without regard to the persons character.
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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #12 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 1:04pm
 
I think it's fair for an organization to set their own rules and standards for membership.

I think it is a good thing that the BSA are exclusionary, it opens the door for the creation of new and hopefully better (IMHO) organizations.

I was a Boy Scout, and being a non-christian, I disliked that part of it.  It's one of the reasons why I stopped scouting.

There are certain parts of scouting (wilderness skills and stewardship of nature) that I loved and it sort of planted that seed in my life that has grown into a big part of who I now am.  I plan on sharing that love with my children and anyone else willing to sit around for it.  And to me, that's a big part of what scouting is about.

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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #13 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 1:06pm
 
 I'm opposed to discriminating against gays or atheists, but I'm not sure that's what's going on here.  I was a Cub Scout for a while (Mom was our den mother) then a Boy Scout for six years.  I made it to Life Scout, one rank below Eagle.  Every week we'd repeat the Scout Oath, Creed, and Motto.  Part of that was swearing on your honor to do your duty to God.  I lost my religious zeal by the time I was eleven, but I had enough sense to keep quiet about it in Scouts.  Had I stood up at a meeting during the Scout Oath and claimed "There is no God"  or something like that  I'm pretty sure they'd have booted me out.  Here's a copy of the Scout Oath:
On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.
  That pretty much sums up the mind set of the Boy Scouts of America.  I think it comes down to common sense here.  If I wanted to remain in the Scouts but was gay or an atheist (I'm neither, BTW) I would have had enough sense to keep my big mouth shut about such things.  I don't think it's the policy of the BSA to actively search for atheists or gays among their ranks but if someone wants to go public it sort of forces their hand.  
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Re: Gay Boy Scout Denied Eagle Rank
Reply #14 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 1:11pm
 
In fact Rat Man, I agree with you and I judge the whole thing extremely ridicolous.
You (metaphorically) know what's the Boy Scout, so it's up to you to stay or leave.
The whole thing does not deserve all this rumor in my opinion.
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