Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... 9
Send Topic Print
How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage ? (Read 45723 times)
David Morningstar
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3515
UK
Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #60 - Oct 11th, 2012 at 4:55am
 
Slings can be made very well without cordage. There are plenty of Native American slings with leather pouches and leather thong cords, sewn together with sinew.

Search for 'sling' here: http://anthro.amnh.org/north


Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Curious Aardvark
Forum Moderation
*****
Offline


Taller than the average
Dwarf

Posts: 13965
Midlands England
Gender: male
Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #61 - Oct 11th, 2012 at 7:22am
 
true - what's the oldest one known ?
Back to top
 

Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
Fundibularius
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Sultan of Sling

Posts: 1385
Inter Mosam ac Rhenum
Gender: male
Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #62 - Oct 11th, 2012 at 11:47pm
 
We might add to the list the depiction of a slinger on the Mycaenean siege rhyton from the 16th cent. BC (http://classics.unc.edu/courses/clar244/MycSgRhyt.jpg) and stored slingstones found, if I am not mistaken, in Troy VII, dating around 1200-1000 BC.

Both are mentioned by Korfmann (http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/troia/st/two/ab/english/ab7eng.html ; would be great if someone could find the whole article, as I have only access to the abstract at the moment).
Back to top
 

Ferrugo numquam dormit.&&(Nigellus Iuvenis)&&&&

Noch weiz ich an im mere daz mir ist bekant
einen lintrachen  slouch des heledes hant
do badet er in dem blvote  des ist der helt gemeit
von also vester hvte  daz in nie wafen sit versneit.
 
IP Logged
 
jlasud
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Programming stones

Posts: 2358
Transilvania
Gender: male
Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #63 - Oct 12th, 2012 at 2:53am
 
David Morningstar wrote on Oct 11th, 2012 at 4:55am:
Slings can be made very well without cordage. There are plenty of Native American slings with leather pouches and leather thong cords, sewn together with sinew.

Search for 'sling' here: http://anthro.amnh.org/north



Hmm true. The thin roots of the pine tree could also probably be made into a sling.I bet there are other plants and stuff (bark strips) that are almost really cordage.Not the best but readily available.
Back to top
 

Respect existance or expect resistance!
 
IP Logged
 
Thearos
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Take that

Posts: 3427
Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #64 - Oct 13th, 2012 at 12:51pm
 
What is the earliest evidence for use of the atlatl ? Alina ?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
David Morningstar
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3515
UK
Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #65 - Oct 13th, 2012 at 2:49pm
 
To the best of my knowledge, Magdalenian III and IV are the oldest spearthrower artefacts, but one is depicted in Lascaux and so is rather older. Small projectile points go back to the Solutrean and Gravettian, and there are small stone points from Africa dated 60,000YA.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mauro Fiorentini
Forum Moderation
*****
Offline


Forge your future with
the hammer of your mind!

Posts: 3444
Ancona, Italy.
Gender: male
Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #66 - Nov 3rd, 2012 at 6:40am
 
If we relate throwing spears to the atlatl, the oldest evidences are 4 wooden javelins discovered in Schoningen, Germany and dating to 400'000 b.C.
Greetings,
Mauro.
Back to top
 

Like! Smiley https://www.facebook.com/Arte-Picena-238289793027749/timeline/
Greetings,
Mauro.

Mauro Fiorentini - 339-525
 
IP Logged
 
Teg
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 1120
Central Europe
Gender: male
Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #67 - Nov 3rd, 2012 at 7:59am
 
Fundibularius wrote on Oct 11th, 2012 at 11:47pm:
Both are mentioned by Korfmann (http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/troia/st/two/ab/english/ab7eng.html ; would be great if someone could find the whole article, as I have only access to the abstract at the moment).


You can easily buy this article. It's a part of this journal:

ISBN: 3-8053-1441-8
Publisher: Philipp von Zabern Verlag 
                          Göttelmannstr.13 A, 55130 Mainz
                          Fax.: (0049) - 06131 - 223710
                          email: vertrieb@zabern.de


Or via Amazon.de:
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/3805314418?ie=UTF8&tag=archinform&linkCode=as2&c...

(Used Price:  EUR 2,95, new price: EUR 28 so it's affordable.)

Follow this link if you prefer libraries (only german and austrian libraries):

http://dispatch.opac.d-nb.de/DB=1.1/SET=1/TTL=1/PRS=HOL/SHW?HOLDINGS_YEAR=&HOLDI...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Atlatlista
Ex Member


Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #68 - Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:45am
 
Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 6:40am:
If we relate throwing spears to the atlatl, the oldest evidences are 4 wooden javelins discovered in Schoningen, Germany and dating to 400'000 b.C.
Greetings,
Mauro.


Schoningen is unrelated to the atlatl, and also unrelated to slinging.  The closest relationship you can find is that some modern people like to throw schoningen spears with an amentum, but this is purely speculative and not based on any extant archaeological evidence.  In fact, there is much debate over where they were actually thrown spears or not.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Atlatlista
Ex Member


Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #69 - Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:49am
 
Thearos wrote on Oct 13th, 2012 at 12:51pm:
What is the earliest evidence for use of the atlatl ? Alina ?


Oldest definitive evidence for the use of the atlatl is the Magdalenian.  However, the Solutrian and Gravettian both offer circumstantial evidence for the use of the atlatl, based on fracture patterns and other features.  There is also a new type of study being done that can assess impact fractures in lithic tools and determine the velocity at which the impact occurred. This might prove useful for determining whether something was propelled by an atlatl or bow, or if it was merely hand-cast.  I'm also working on a paper that may be able to relate the development of atlatls to the exploitation of marine mammals.  If I can get the evidence I need, it will give us more circumstantial evidence for the presence of atlatls based on zooarchaeology.  I also have a pet theory that needs a lot of work that Neanderthals were using atlatls about 30,000BP.  It's so far from being provable right now it's not funny, but there is more circumstantial evidence available than most people know.  Potential projectile points go back much farther than that.  There are some suggestions that points found in Ethiopia from more than 100,000BP may be projectile points.  I know a well-respected professor who believes modern humans (h. sapiens) have had complex projectile weapons for as long as they have existed.

Omo kibish point, Ethiopia, 104,000BP:

...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Atlatlista
Ex Member


Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #70 - Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:59am
 
Oh, and while I'm on a posting spree, let me add my two cents in here.  I think slings were primarily developed, not for shepherds guarding flocks, but as weapons for warfare.  I think slings coincide with warfare and that they have little use in hunting contexts.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mauro Fiorentini
Forum Moderation
*****
Offline


Forge your future with
the hammer of your mind!

Posts: 3444
Ancona, Italy.
Gender: male
Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #71 - Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:59am
 
Quote:
Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 6:40am:
If we relate throwing spears to the atlatl, the oldest evidences are 4 wooden javelins discovered in Schoningen, Germany and dating to 400'000 b.C.
Greetings,
Mauro.


Schoningen is unrelated to the atlatl, and also unrelated to slinging.  The closest relationship you can find is that some modern people like to throw schoningen spears with an amentum, but this is purely speculative and not based on any extant archaeological evidence.  In fact, there is much debate over where they were actually thrown spears or not.


That's why I wrote "If we relate throwing spears to the atlatl"  Smiley
Incorrect grammar?!?
BTW how are you Alina? I hope everything's ok?!
Greetings,
Mauro.
Back to top
 

Like! Smiley https://www.facebook.com/Arte-Picena-238289793027749/timeline/
Greetings,
Mauro.

Mauro Fiorentini - 339-525
 
IP Logged
 
Atlatlista
Ex Member


Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #72 - Nov 3rd, 2012 at 11:11am
 
Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:59am:
Quote:
Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 6:40am:
If we relate throwing spears to the atlatl, the oldest evidences are 4 wooden javelins discovered in Schoningen, Germany and dating to 400'000 b.C.
Greetings,
Mauro.


Schoningen is unrelated to the atlatl, and also unrelated to slinging.  The closest relationship you can find is that some modern people like to throw schoningen spears with an amentum, but this is purely speculative and not based on any extant archaeological evidence.  In fact, there is much debate over where they were actually thrown spears or not.


That's why I wrote "If we relate throwing spears to the atlatl"  Smiley
Incorrect grammar?!?
BTW how are you Alina? I hope everything's ok?!
Greetings,
Mauro.


Doing well, Mauro!  I hope you're okay too.

I should add, and this isn't directed at you, that I think we're barking up the wrong tree when we compare slings and atlatls.  If you look at cultures with atlatls, slings are either rarely-used toys, or they're non-existent.  And if you look at cultures with slings, you don't tend to find atlatls.  It's not an either or deal, of course.  Slings were common in Peru, and the estolica, or atlatl, also existed.  Slings were used from time to time amongst the Inuit.  The list of exceptions could go on.  But if you look at these cultures, they have a fundamental focus on one or the other.  Slings are not commonly used weapons in the arctic - not compared to harpoons and throwing boards and bows.  Slings are unheard of in Australia.  Similarly, in Polynesia, there is no evidence for atlatls, despite ample evidence for thrown spears.  And in the Peruvian context, the estolica predominated in the coastal areas of the country, while the sling predominated in the highlands of the Andes.

I think slings and atlatls have just one thing in common - they act as levers which amplify the force of the arm.  However, that's pretty much all they have in common.  The technology needed to make a good slingstone is wildly different from that needed to make a good atlatl dart, and the same goes for the slings and atlatls themselves.  Moreover, the weapons lend themselves better to different ecological niches.  You would use a sling in a dense rainforest, or from a boat trying to hit a sea lion, just as you'll have far better luck in terms of range with a sling than you will with an atlatl in open places.  And, above the tree line, slings will have more ammunition.

So, I propose as an alternative to looking at atlatls for the development of slings, that we look to rocks.  See, people took up throwing sticks pretty early in their development (by 400,000 BP at least), but they also threw rocks.  We don't have archaeological evidence for it, as unmodified rocks leave no human trail behind.  However, there are modified hand-cast throwing rocks on many islands in the Pacific region especially, and these have entered the ethnographic record as such.  This suggests that people began shaping throwing rocks before they developed the sling, and that shaped slingstones flowed naturally from a behavior that was already being practiced.  I think the search for the earliest origins of slings begins with the search for modified throwing rocks.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mauro Fiorentini
Forum Moderation
*****
Offline


Forge your future with
the hammer of your mind!

Posts: 3444
Ancona, Italy.
Gender: male
Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #73 - Nov 3rd, 2012 at 12:11pm
 
I totally agree with you  Smiley
Greetings,
Mauro.
Back to top
 

Like! Smiley https://www.facebook.com/Arte-Picena-238289793027749/timeline/
Greetings,
Mauro.

Mauro Fiorentini - 339-525
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Skinner
Forum Moderation
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3292
Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #74 - Nov 3rd, 2012 at 8:18pm
 
That looks like pressure flaking around the base, with some edge retouch that may or may not be pressure flaking.  What's a neolithic point doing in a paleolithic site?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... 9
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Masiakasaurus, Rat Man, David Morningstar, Curious Aardvark, Chris, Mauro Fiorentini, Bill Skinner)