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How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage ? (Read 36421 times)
Curious Aardvark
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #15 - Sep 2nd, 2012 at 3:51pm
 
I was thinking more along the lines of people with a lot of time to spend on both making and learning to use slings. As well as the many uses shepherds make of slings.
Plus before slings they'd have thrown stones as a matter of course.
So a way to throw further would have been something a shepherd would have sought.
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Dan
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #16 - Sep 2nd, 2012 at 6:58pm
 
So, you are deducting that slings would have been more likely used and sought out at the beginging of the Aggricultural era rather than the Hunter/Gatherer era.

I agree with the whole sheperding thing.

There won't really be an entire chapter on sling history since there really isn't a whole lot to tell. However, there will be some mention to confirmed (Middle eastern, roman, aztec, balaeric, etc.) sling use in historic times, as is appropriate IMO.

The Earliest mention of slings in the Bible is the Benjamites and that took place around 1290 BC.
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-date-chronology-of-...

Or about 3300 years ago for confirmed Isrealite sling battle use. Being that they were very good slingers, I imagine they hadn't just picked it up recently and had been training since they could, so you can count on it going back at least a few generations. In other words, it's probably been in shepearding almost as long as sheep have.

I belive the Egyptian account does go back a bit further than that but your sheperding theory sounds pretty sound. And I'd be willing to have it in The Guide.

The 'Cave man slings' might be one of those common historical sling misconceptions much like David being a little boy. It happens. I'm glad we could kinda set the record straight on this one.
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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.
 
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David Morningstar
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #17 - Sep 3rd, 2012 at 5:44am
 
The sling made it across to North America and across the pacific islands which is a migratory journey that began waaaay before agriculture. I have no doubt that the sling and atlatl were invented by early modern humans in Africa and went with us on the migration out of Africa into Europe/Asia and beyond.

This is a selection of probable projectile points in Africa over  60,000 years old, before the migration out. The article calls this evidence for the bow and arrow, but I call BS on this. The spearthrower was the technology that went with migrating humans to Australia and America, and was used in Europe as recently as 15,000 years ago, the bow only appears later.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11086110
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #18 - Sep 3rd, 2012 at 6:16am
 
Hallo David,
while I've found that article pretty interesting, I'd like to warn you about this sentence:
Quote:
The discovery pushes back the development of "bow and arrow technology" by at least 20,000 years

I'd be very cautious writing something like this, because these points doesn't have a suitable shape for being arrowheads (judging by that only picture), and two of the at least looks like scratchers to me.
The fact that bone and blood have been found there is not a valuable evidence, because they may have been used for scratching (exactly) bones or leather. The same for the glue evidence, for they may have had a handle.
Again, an interesting article, by the way  Smiley
Unfortunately it does not talk about slinging  Sad
Greetings,
Mauro.
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David Morningstar
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #19 - Sep 3rd, 2012 at 6:53am
 
We cannot place the sling in pre-migration Africa yet, but there are these possible projectile points. If these are evidence for the spearthrower then the principle of arm-extending throwing tools is established and would strengthen the case for the sling if, for example, a cache of rounded weight matched stones were to be found from that period.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #20 - Sep 3rd, 2012 at 6:59am
 
Oh, yea, I agree then, thanks for the explanation  Smiley
As I wrote, I already tried to contact an archaeologist who wrote an article saying that there're evidences of slinging dating 80'000 years bp but he never replied  Sad
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #21 - Sep 3rd, 2012 at 7:44am
 
David Morningstar wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 6:53am:
We cannot place the sling in pre-migration Africa yet, but there are these possible projectile points. If these are evidence for the spearthrower then the principle of arm-extending throwing tools is established and would strengthen the case for the sling if, for example, a cache of rounded weight matched stones were to be found from that period.


That would help. But there is no incentive for the hunter gatherer to have developed sling use.
Weapon development is pretty clear.
Blunt object to hit things with.
sharp object to stab things with
long sharp object to throw at things.
better ways to throw the long sharp object.
firearms

There is just no incentive for hunter gatherers to develop slings. And as far as I can find, bugger all evidence that they even considered it.

Whereas once you get people guarding flocks all day, cord making would have been a natural pastime. Some way of herding the animals and deterring predators would have been at the front of their desires.
Slings and shepherds go together perfectly. They have the materials, incentive and most importantly - the time to spend getting proficient with a sling. Time no hunter gatherer would have spent when he had  a perfectly functional spear thrower.

One of the classic examples of this are the australian aborigenes. Always hunter gatherers - never took up herding. never developed the sling.
One of the few landmasses on the planet where the sling was not developed. And the only one where no aspect of herding was done before western society landed there.

Counter to that I suppose would be the polynesians. Who did develop slings without a herding culture, but probably as a side effect of fishing techniques. Plus they were so war oriented that they would have spent the time developing obscure weapon usage.  And could well have taken the sling idea from raids on herding societies.  

The more you consider the anthropological, physical and practical aspects of the sling. The more likely it becomes that slings are just not as old a weapon as we've generally believed.
And were most probably never used to hunt big game.
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Dan
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #22 - Sep 3rd, 2012 at 7:48am
 
Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 6:59am:
Oh, yea, I agree then, thanks for the explanation  Smiley
As I wrote, I already tried to contact an archaeologist who wrote an article saying that there're evidences of slinging dating 80'000 years bp but he never replied  Sad
Greetings,
Mauro.


See, that's a very long period of uncomfirmed time compared to the Israelite or Egyptian account.

I myself am pretty curious at how he arrived at that number.

I think that war like societies devoloped the sling seperately from the wheperding thing (Like in NA, and the pacific Islands). How that happened, I'm not to sure. Again without written record, it's pretty tough to judge these things.
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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.
 
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David Morningstar
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #23 - Sep 3rd, 2012 at 10:03am
 
I disagree with C_A. The Native North Americans didn't herd anything but the sling is found from Alaska to Tenochtitlan.

From our article http://slinging.org/index.php?page=the-chumash-sling---paul-campbell

"The Pomo made a sling for hunting or war... Sling throwers stood a little to the rear of the front battle line. Boys brought them stones in baskets. For geese, hunters hurled a round stone 1-1/2 to 2 inches in diameter. But for ducks or mud hens balls of clay 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 inches in diameter were used. "

The Pomo were not herders or farmers: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomo_people#_

"Traditionally they relied upon fishing, hunting and gathering for their food."

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Fundibularius
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #24 - Sep 3rd, 2012 at 11:52pm
 
The possibility of the sling originating in the Paleolithic Era and its hypothetic use by Neanderthals has been discussed by Hondero in his "History of the Sling" which should be a standard read for everyone interested in slinging.

By whatever reason, I only have access to the original Spanish version at the moment http://perso.wanadoo.es/hondero/PALEOLITICOe.pdf As for the English translation, there seems to be only the introduction left http://www.slinging.org/wiki/index.php?title=INTRODUCTION._THE_SLING

What's happened? Or is it me?
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« Last Edit: Sep 4th, 2012 at 1:57am by Fundibularius »  

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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #25 - Sep 7th, 2012 at 9:15am
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 2:56pm:
well as far as the slingers guide goes. If nobody's writing a history section already - I will be. 


C_A, I wrote the section on sling use, both past and present. While no specific dates were given, I did say that the sling is mankind's second oldest projectile weapon system, preceded only by the atlatl.
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #26 - Sep 7th, 2012 at 12:02pm
 
Well i'd change that to read third oldest. I'd say it's pretty definite that bows and arrows - which were used by hunter gatherers, most likely predate the sling by quite some time.

I believe there are cave paintings depicting bows while there are none depicting slings.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #27 - Sep 7th, 2012 at 2:14pm
 
Forgive me, as I've written a couple of articles for archaeological journals (well, three, two published and one being printed right now) I learned to avoid accurate affirmations like "the sling is the second (or the third) most ancient ranged weapon", if there're not enough evidences.
This to avoid the risk of spreading inaccurate information, and to leave room for future corrections.
Just my two cents  Smiley
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #28 - Sep 7th, 2012 at 11:06pm
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 12:15pm:
lol - what idiot added the E ?
BC means the same thing Smiley  

I have a rant about this. Smiley BCE was an attempt to dechristianize anthropology by removing references to Christ. It ends up being just as ethnocentric as BC but more pretentious because it's based on the same date for the same reason. Before Present is a better alternative. Rant over.

IMHO, 200,000 years ago is the absolute oldest slings could be since that's roughly when modern man showed up and archaic humans don't show enough improvement in their knapping for me to believe they improved much technologically in other areas. (Assuming Denisova man and Neanderthal man had similar tool use.) My money is on a single origin after the first migrations to Australia (49,000 BC), but before humans reached North America (14,500–11,000 BC). 15,000 BC is very believable. Copying someone else's idea is easy, thinking for yourself is really hard so I have a hard time believing in multiple origins.
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Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
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Dan
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Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Reply #29 - Sep 8th, 2012 at 7:51am
 
The difficult thing about history is withour real observation, nothing can be scientifically proven.

I'm going to stick with the Bible and put this out there, The Bow is mentioned in Genesis 20 with Ishmale becoming an archer. That's a little more than 800 years before David.

  I'm just going to go with they came out pretty close to each other, and they have both been along for a long time, there's really no way to prove any weapon preceded the other. This is all just speculation. Both Archery and Slings can be found pretty universally, I'd estimate that various people groups needed to eat and made do with what they had.
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I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.
 
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