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Early Steel Quality (Read 4782 times)
Thunder Chief
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Early Steel Quality
Aug 6
th
, 2012 at 8:05pm
I've had this question for a while and after much Googling, I can't seem to find a straight answer, so, what was the quality of blade steel in say the high or late Roman era? How comparable would it be to modern steels?
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bigkahuna
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #1 -
Aug 6
th
, 2012 at 8:46pm
Steel would have been pretty rough as they had no quality control. Individual blacksmiths turned out what they thought was good steel and compared to the iron, the steel was certainly an improvement. But still the steel would not be on a par with what is produced today.
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #2 -
Aug 6
th
, 2012 at 9:54pm
Until Bessemer invented his process, most early steels had a very high silica content, this tended to make the steel more brittle than modern steels. This is for European steel, I don't know about anywhere else.
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Thunder Chief
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #3 -
Aug 6
th
, 2012 at 10:57pm
bigkahuna wrote
on Aug 6
th
, 2012 at 8:46pm:
Steel would have been pretty rough as they had no quality control. Individual blacksmiths turned out what they thought was good steel and compared to the iron, the steel was certainly an improvement. But still the steel would not be on a par with what is produced today.
Could they be compared to modern mild steel?
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #4 -
Aug 7
th
, 2012 at 12:49am
Not at all, modern steel is way much better.
The best roman iron was the "Ferrum Noricum", and was mined on the Alps. It was the best raw material to start with in order to get steel, and there's an Author (which I can't remember now - hey I just woke up it's 6.32am
) who wrote that using that iron they were able to make gladius blades that could be bended "from a shoulder to the other, over the head", and then return back in straigth position without a problem.
Sorry but this's everything I remember about this right now; but ancient steel (in Europe) has a much longer history and the Roman age one was a great improvement if we think at the earliest iron weapons, these of the Italic tribes and even the Celtic ones.
There were exceptions in archaic Spain and Greece, and I'd reconsider ironworking among the Germanic Celts, but it's a really long discussion then.
Maybe these links may interest you:
http://etadelferro.forumfree.it
- on the Iron Age (yeah I'm spamming
)
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1304866605
- the reconstruction of an early Iron Age forge.
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1338743737/0
- the reconstruction of an early Iron Age sword.
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1338887267/0
- a blog on ancient ironsmithing.
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1142440079
- general blacksmithing.
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1134003831
- questions on steel.
http://unimc.academia.edu/MauroFiorentini/Papers
- you can read or download some extracts on ironsmithing and quenching blades from here.
Greetings,
Mauro.
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bigkahuna
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #5 -
Aug 7
th
, 2012 at 4:54am
The quality of the steel really depended on the skill of the blacksmith who made it. Some were better. Some, not so good.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #6 -
Aug 7
th
, 2012 at 5:53am
It's true, but a bit simplistic, mind you. Actually, the quality of steel depends on how much carbon is in the iron, how it's spread and its depth.
The blacksmith's skill is to understand these variables and change them in order to get a stronger metal - which is not an easy task, especially if we're talking about ancient ages where they could just rely on their eyes and ears to "understand" the raw iron.
Greetings,
Mauro.
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jlasud
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #7 -
Aug 8
th
, 2012 at 3:16pm
I've also read somewhere ,that Iberians burried iron for a few years then it dug up,the low quality would have rusted away,and they made so good quality falcata's that it could be bent on the head, the ends reaching both shoulder's and when let go it would spring back to straight. Now that had to be a very good sword blade.
I think they were a few good blacksmiths who could make decent steel by even modern standards,from good quality iron and generations of experiences handed over and over. Many of the weapons,may have been "steely iron"
And yes,probably every blacksmith had his own skill level and raw material. A blacksmith who only made farming tools for his entire life,might not have been too much interested in getting really good steel ,as an armorer who may had worked for equipping noble warriors for ex.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #8 -
Aug 8
th
, 2012 at 3:37pm
Everytime I manage to turn iron into steel I feel so cool
You can feel the difference in my last Picenian sword; the quenched section is steel, the rest is hammered iron.
Greetings,
Mauro.
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jlasud
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #9 -
Aug 8
th
, 2012 at 3:48pm
I guess you,and ancient blacksmith would listen the the sword,as they would hammer it. The ring can tell a lot for the experienced blacksmith. Did you quench it in water,Mauro? Have you added charcoal to your iron?
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #10 -
Aug 8
th
, 2012 at 3:58pm
Actually I do "test" the iron before choosing which one to forge.
Teg saw this, I just throw some different bars on the ground and listen to which one sounds more... clinking. But that's just the beginning, I'm not able yet to decide for how long and at which temperature I have to forge that bar.
Using recycled bars doesn't help, because there're no two of them with the same sound. So the carbon percentage vary each forging, and this affect the time of forging.
If you check my papers at academia.edu, there's the review I wrote about using 4 different quenching liquids: water, frozen water, water+oil and oil.
Oil has proven to be the better but I used simple water for the sword and it worked just fine, as it did for 3 smaller knives (out of 20+!!! I still have much to learn
).
The coal addition is natural because I forge my iron using vegetal coal
Greetings,
Mauro.
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Bibbs
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #11 -
Aug 9
th
, 2012 at 9:53pm
Now it is my understanding that the japanese a truly poor quality metal (i think it is known as iron sand) and make their magnificent steel weapons through theirtechniquesi don't know this for a fact but it is what I have read on the subject
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timann
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #12 -
Aug 10
th
, 2012 at 11:23am
Bibbs wrote
on Aug 9
th
, 2012 at 9:53pm:
Now it is my understanding that the japanese a truly poor quality metal (i think it is known as iron sand) and make their magnificent steel weapons through theirtechniquesi don't know this for a fact but it is what I have read on the subject
I have read the same, but also that the japanese way was used in Europe in the beginning until getting better iron ore and knowledge. Simplified, swords from before and into the viking age was hammered and folded a lot but around years 6-700 the process was simplified.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #13 -
Aug 10
th
, 2012 at 11:40am
Bibbs, are you talking about the same period Thunder Chief took into consideration (late Roman era, around 4th Century a.D.)?
Because as far as I know (Storia Illustrata delle Armi bianche, 2007) Jap's early steel was similar to Chinese's, and was not yet the one used for making katanas, but I could be wrong.
Should you have further sources, please add!
Greetings,
Mauro.
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Re: Early Steel Quality
Reply #14 -
Aug 11
th
, 2012 at 2:22pm
As far as I know,quenching in oil also provides the steel a protection against rusting. And not sure about this, but i think it adds some charcoal to the surface too.
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