Slinging.org Forum - The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at once

jlasud

Interfector Viris Spurii

Offline

Programming stones

Posts: 2358
Transilvania
Gender: male

Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #15 - Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 1:32am

After a short research, .22 LR bullets are around 2 gramms and travel 330-530m\s having 141 -277 J of KE
Thats about the KE you get with a sling. That's with the common weights and decent speed.
With 30g glans and 70 m\s launch the KE is just 73.5 J.That's half of the lowest powered .22LR. Not too bright.. I prefer my standard 57g glans..at 75 m\s which is a good shot,i can get,yields 160 J. That's an average .22's KE. So small weights are fine, you just have to send them with ridiculous speeds.Humans are better at moving heavier weights slower.

Back to top

Respect existance or expect resistance!

IP Logged

David Morningstar Slinging.org Moderator Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 3419 UK	Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o Reply #16 - Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 3:42am KE is pretty meaningless for calculating lethality. Would you want to be under a 30g bullet when it lands? Try breaking a few planks with one.
Back to top	IP Logged

Curious Aardvark

Forum Moderation

Offline

Taller than the average
Dwarf

Posts: 13965
Midlands England
Gender: male

Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #17 - Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 7:02am

multiple glandes won't work.

You just do not get the spin necessary to self orient. you bullets would not impact end on - which is 90% of the benefit of glande shaped bullets.
It's the small, drilling impact point with the weight of the rest of the bullet behind it that causes the damage.

You just can't get that from a multiple launch (possibly with one of jaegoors multipouched slings - but can't be done with a single pouch sling).
Now if you used spherical ammo you'd get better distance for multiple shots plus better impact plus more accurate flight path.

Glandes have to be slung singly to work properly. IT's part of the design.

Got to admit though - those are some great looking glandes Thumbs Up

What have you got written on them ?

As for how many you'd carry.
well given that 8-10 shots a minute is easily acheivable by even a moderately skilled slinger and battles can last hours.
You'd carry as many as you could.
several pouches slung round your body could easily accomodate 15-30kg say 500-1000 bullets per slinger. There would probably be ammunition carts for transporting the bullets to the battlefield.
That many bullets would give you 1 - 1.5 hours sustained slinging.
Plus a 30gm glande can be slung 250 metres plus. So as the enemy advances the slinger can just back up and keep slinging over his own army.

Personally If I were going into battle - I'd carry as much ammo as I could.
Plus you only have to pick it up when moving position.

But given that they generally did not wear armour - 15-30 kg is not a lot of weight if correctly distributed (for me anyway).

Back to top

Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One - works for me

IP Logged

Dan

Interfector Viris Spurii
SlingingGuide Moderator

Offline

Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3974
Gender: male

Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #18 - Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 8:48am

Okay, I converted it so I would no what you guys are talking about, 30 grams is only about 1 oz.
I think I would prefer 2-4 oz ammo and assuming we are in the roman era here, I might just take some lead from the extensivie plumbing supply to get some more ammo.

I was just reading in Black Hawk Down (great book) how one of the Delta guys was very dissapointed with the 223 round and the concept that you want the enemy to go down when you hit them. You don't want to have to wonder 4 hours later when you are proceeding forward that he can still shoot you.

For me, it'd be the same way with glands, I want the guy to go down on the first shot.

Now I think some balistics test are really necessary. If a one ounce glande can kill easily in several locations on the body, than I'd take those, but I'd feel more conficant using something at least twice the weight.

Back to top

I was pretty good at slinging like 10 years ago.

IP Logged

Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o Reply #19 - Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 9:31am Curious Aardvark wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 7:02am: (possibly with one of jaegoors multipouched slings - but can't be done with a single pouch sling). Fundibularius' Red Baron, surely ?
Back to top	IP Logged

nemo

Descens

Offline

Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 203

Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #20 - Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 10:38am

Im not sure on this, but what is the standard weight for a war arrow used? Always seems to be measured in grains, which wiki says is roughly 15.6 grains in a gram. So a 450 grain arrow is roughly 30g?

I am under the impression that a single 30g lead shot is sufficient on its own. Lead was expensive and so the army would have tried to get the most efficient weight to damage ratio they could. There is no point throwing 150g of lead if you could kill a man with 30g.
Also we come to a point, the Romans did not always intend to kill people in battle. It is known that if you injure a man instead of kill him, that puts two out of battle, the man who is hurt, and someone to bring him back and look after him. Also, an injured man is no threat to you, just slows the enemy down. The point of battle isnt to kill the enemy, just stop them resisting you.

I do understand what Dan means by wanting to know the enemy is dead and not going to harm you, but that is modern day where anyone has a gun and is dangerous so long as they can pull the trigger. If you are able to take down a spearman from 100 yards away, it doesnt matter if he is dead or dying, you are still safe.

Nemo

Back to top

IP Logged

Rat Man

Slinging.org Administrator

Offline

Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 13678
New Jersey, USA
Gender: male

Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #21 - Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 11:36am

We can speculate until perdition freezes over but the fact is that ancient slingers who used lead ammo did very often, apparently more times than not, use small ammo somewhere around 30 grams. To these people slinging wasn't a sport. It was life and death. They had countless thousands of years to perfect their craft so we can assume that they knew what they were doing. If small lead glandes were good enough for them then I'm convinced.

Back to top

IP Logged

Thearos Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Take that Posts: 3410	Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o Reply #22 - Jul 2^nd, 2012 at 1:30pm I agree with C-A and RM
Back to top	IP Logged

jlasud

Interfector Viris Spurii

Offline

Programming stones

Posts: 2358
Transilvania
Gender: male

Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #23 - Jul 8^th, 2012 at 4:14am

I agree that probably they used about that weight most often,by multiple armies,in a longer stretch of time,and multiple places on earth,because it was good enough,and that lead was expensive,and they wanted more shot for the buck.
I've found my ideal lead glande weight..i also have to preserve lead,want to sling it as far as possible,and have it to do serious damage(i'm not using this,it's just the nature of the glans) For me that weight is 57g that's 2 oz.
I've also stated before,not in this topic,than the ancient glans about the same weight as arrows,and travelled probably at least that fast,but most probably faster.I assume that glans retain their velocity better than arrows,so at impact,having bigger surface area,than an arrowhead,but compensated with more velocity which raises power by square,i would dare to say,that they were probably about as effective as an arrow.Having more range,and the ammo cast MUCH more quickly than how much labor and time is needed to make an arrow,you get some big advantage. Also i suspect that lead with it's melting point of 320 degrees C ,and 900-1000 degrees C that's needed to forge iron arrowheads or cast bronze ones,plus the feathers,shaft,glue,and or thread,glans would have been MUCH cheaper than an arrow.And counting them by the 1000 or 10.000 it would have made a BIG difference on their war budget.
C_A ,i highly doubt an any ancient slinger was given or produced for himself 500-1000 glans for a battle. I could image up to 100.but,that's it.True ,that you could sling those in 10 minutes in a hurry,but 1000 slingers ,each with 100 bullets showering the enemy with a HAIL of 100.000 glans for 15 minutes, in the beginning of the battle would probably do something..That would be 3 tonnes of lead in 15 min. falling on the enemy in form of 30g glans with spearheads,thunderbolts,snakes and scorpions on them 3 tonnes of lead for an ancient army must had been quite an expense..Today it would cost 5700 $..not that much

Back to top

Respect existance or expect resistance!

IP Logged

jlasud

Interfector Viris Spurii

Offline

Programming stones

Posts: 2358
Transilvania
Gender: male

Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #24 - Jul 8^th, 2012 at 4:36am

Back to my experiment..My mould was quite a failure..this is why i didn't adventure to make such big gang molds,because clay as it dries,usually dries not so evenly..so large flat pieces tend to get curved.That's why i've turned mine either side,and added a lot of sand to it,to try to keep it in original shape.Keep in mind that 1-2mm twist in the mold seriously affects the precision of mold,even can cause the lead to leak between the two halves,and it's bad..you can burry it sand,but it will have a lot of flashing,and that's work to do,to cut of..I don't like to handle and cut lead..it stains your fingers and it's bad for ya.
So my mold got slightly curved..like 3-4mm distorsion.I've run some water over it,and put it back in a plastic bag to remoisten it,without having to reform the mold.The moistening process made one of the halfs to crack in 4 pieces Cry

Anyways,i've dried them again,and fired it..I've put together the now 5 piece mold,instead of 2

and poured some lead in it.I buried it in sand first,but the weight of the lead still made the pieces move,and lead was leaking,so i had to try 3 times before i could finally cast a glans tree.I never messed so much with a mold..But i've managed to reproduce the original to some degree of accuracy..originally i made the mold to cast about 30g glandes,but with the distorsion,and that the two halfs weren't close fitting,the glans got thicker and so heavier.They are between 40-45g.. that's what 2-3mm of lead in thickness does add..Here's a pic with the gang mold open and the glans tree with a LOT of thick flashing.I sometimes wondered,how's that the ancients had so much flashing..while mine are much more precise..well the ancient probably used gang mold,which are much harder to get precise than my small single molds..

Back to top

Olom_fa_001.jpg (66 KB | )

Respect existance or expect resistance!

IP Logged

jlasud Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Programming stones Posts: 2358 Transilvania Gender:	Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o Reply #25 - Jul 8^th, 2012 at 4:39am 2 glans have the DEXAI inscription on them,on mirrored ,seems like i forget to inscribe one of them mirrored. This is the tree out of the mold,still with flashing.Similar like this have been found..
Back to top	Olom_fa_004.jpg (44 KB \| ) Respect existance or expect resistance! IP Logged

jlasud Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Programming stones Posts: 2358 Transilvania Gender:	Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o Reply #26 - Jul 8^th, 2012 at 4:42am After a LOT of cutting the flashing is cleaned.Mine had thick flashing so it was quite hard to cut.Also my lead wasn't pure it has very small percentage of zinc in it, but this makes it considerably harder,contributing to the difficulty of cutting the flash.
Back to top	Olom_fa_008.jpg (57 KB \| ) Respect existance or expect resistance! IP Logged

jlasud Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Programming stones Posts: 2358 Transilvania Gender:	Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o Reply #27 - Jul 8^th, 2012 at 4:43am Finally here are the 9 cut,hammered,ready glans,weighting 40-45g
Back to top	Olom_fa_013.jpg (37 KB \| ) Respect existance or expect resistance! IP Logged

Rat Man Slinging.org Administrator Offline Slinging Rocks! Posts: 13678 New Jersey, USA Gender:	Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o Reply #28 - Jul 8^th, 2012 at 10:45am Excellent. Great work!
Back to top	IP Logged

jlasud

Interfector Viris Spurii

Offline

Programming stones

Posts: 2358
Transilvania
Gender: male

Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #29 - Jul 8^th, 2012 at 1:57pm

I just got home from the outskirts and i've tried the multiple glans...3 of them,and they were easily falling during windup.Tried it with 2 ,again easily falling from the pouch.Before this,i've succesfully launched two salvos with longer,more symmetrical 50g ones,three at a time,from the same sling,that's made for long distance lead slinging,and i've posted pics about it a while ago.
After the failed attempts at slinging 3 and 2 glans at once,i've slung 8 glans one by one far into a forest starting from 150m,and on a hill.I could hit high and deep in the forest,about 180m away(googleearth).2 of them hit a pine tree dead on it's trunk,and it was a solid TUNKK,that was heard very good from such distance.
With a shorter sling,as this one was 110cm,and requires heavier ammo to be efficient,a 80cm one ,would be probably much more suitable,and it would be probably closer to what the ancients might have used in slinger units,formations.I would say 250m-300m on a flat terrain is possible to achieve with the glans the ancient used,weighting around 30g. After this experiment,i would dare to say that the myth of multiple lead glans,slung at once is busted.It was a very representative experiment for me at least,and convinced me that 30-40g glans were very effective and slung one by one.Also loading three of them in the pouch,is time consuming and even if they stay there in the pouch is not so effective,than slinging rapidly one after the other.
Remember:3 tonnes of lead hail is possible from 1000 slingers,in 10 minutes,with 30g glandes.And they would hit hard. These were 40g and hit very seriously at 180-200m..30g would be slightly weaker,but still they would be nasty.

Back to top

Respect existance or expect resistance!

IP Logged