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The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at once (Read 13798 times)
jlasud
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The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at once
Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:09pm
 
So mostly Jaegoor and others are convinced that 30g lead glans might have been used as multiple shot.I find this idea plausible,mostly because those weights are less than ideal for slinging them one at a time. And ancient slingers might have been generally smaller than today's average,still not THAT small to sling 30g glans at once.Another guy thinks they were shot from double roped,pouched ballistas,as shot from a shotgun.In the name of experimental archeology,as it seems that no one really tried this,made this,i had to do it.It was too interesting to me,to let this mystery keep floating around.So here's a gang mould that's supposed to yield 9 lead glans per cast tree ,each in around 30g,of relatively uniform weight. IF all goes well.So far here's the progress:
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jlasud
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #1 - Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:11pm
 
Made like this: With the beeswax positive pushed into a block of clay,then sifted charcoal powder over,as parting powder,then another block of clay with sand mixed in it is pushed over it.
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jlasud
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #2 - Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:13pm
 
Just like a couple thousand years ago...here's the archeological find,after i've modelled mine
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jlasud
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #3 - Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:04pm
 
Here's a sling with 3x 50g incriptioned glans Multishots remain to be tested tommorow.
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perpetualstudent
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #4 - Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:09pm
 
That's really cool!

Edit: are you going to try to use a gourd or bottle sling with them as well?
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"Facts stand wholly outside our gates; they are what they are, and no more;they know nothing about themselves and they pass no judgement upon themselves. What is it, then, that pronounces the judgement? Our own guide and ruler, Reason."
 
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #5 - Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:19pm
 

Damn, those look good! I suppose you fired the clay moulds before pouring the lead... did you melt out the wax first, lost-wax style?

I do not doubt that 30g glandes were used singly. Any attempt to use multiple projectiles always results in wide sprays that would be uselessly dispersed at 50 yards never mind 500.

My hypothesis is that the light ammo weight was to allow each peltast to carry more shots for a given weight. These guys were all about mobility and would have had to run full pelt for hundreds of yards to get into and out of their shooting positions as the battle developed.

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jlasud
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #6 - Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:38pm
 
The molds are just drying clay with sand temper.Tomorrow i'll try to get them fired,and if i succeed,ill cast some lead in it. The wax is pushed between to blocks,and the 2 part mould is taken apart,the wax taken out.
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #7 - Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:42pm
 
Very nice bonsai tree, Jlasud! I am also sure that your little nice glandes could be sent pretty far one by one. Your sling on the picture seems to be able to do it. I am sure you will try them singly too.
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In the shape, structure and position of each stone, there is recorded a small piece of history. So, slinging them, we add a bit of our history to them.
 
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jlasud
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #8 - Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:51pm
 
One by one too..
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Dan
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #9 - Jun 30th, 2012 at 3:57pm
 
That's Beast! I think another reason they were small is if your enemy is relatively spread out, three out of four 1 oz glands that hit are going to hurt a lot more than one 4 oz gland that misses.
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"Like tying a stone to a sling is the giving of honor to a fool" Proverbs 26:8
 
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jlasud
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #10 - Jun 30th, 2012 at 4:03pm
 
Yep..I wonder how much kilo lead would they have given per slinger,in different battles 2-3 kilogramms is what i would imagine.Cast in 30g that would mean 66 shot in 2 kilogramms ,that sounds very economic.Yet still does hurt..but if you can slung them 2-3 at a time?
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Thearos
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #11 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 7:50am
 
Three remarks

1. Very nice, first time I've seen a modern version of a "tree" mould. The alignment bosses are particularly well done.

2. I find the idea of multiple projectiles not believable. Two reasons:
a. the result will be, as DM writes, a spray of projectiles
b. the various projectiles will hit at different distances
c. You lose the great advantage of lead: super-fast projectiles going at super-long distancesó this is explicitly attested, by the famous Xenophon passage, as the point of lead (you outrange stone shooters).

3. I am one of those who on this forum has mentioned "catapults", which is, of course, the correct Greek word to refer to what the Romans later called the ballista. There is one explicit attestation, in Appian's account of the siege of Athens, of the use of multiple lead proj. by catapults. So this is not speculation (like Jaegoor), but a specific ancient text.
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #12 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 8:31am
 
There was a thread, which I can't find, about the odd shaped leather pouches used by the Greeks. †It was rectangular with lobed corners. †Would that have helped throw multiple projectiles? 

Outstanding work, I ment to compliment the mold but I got caught up in the dicussion about throwing many projectiles at once.  I would think that the mold will be rather fragile in an unfired state, how is it standing up to casting?
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jlasud
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #13 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 10:49am
 
Thearos wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 7:50am:
Three remarks

1. Very nice, first time I've seen a modern version of a "tree" mould. The alignment bosses are particularly well done.

2. I find the idea of multiple projectiles not believable. Two reasons:
a. the result will be, as DM writes, a spray of projectiles
b. the various projectiles will hit at different distances
c. You lose the great advantage of lead: super-fast projectiles going at super-long distancesó this is explicitly attested, by the famous Xenophon passage, as the point of lead (you outrange stone shooters).

3. I am one of those who on this forum has mentioned "catapults", which is, of course, the correct Greek word to refer to what the Romans later called the ballista. There is one explicit attestation, in Appian's account of the siege of Athens, of the use of multiple lead proj. by catapults. So this is not speculation (like Jaegoor), but a specific ancient text.

I just came back after testing 3x 50g lead glans.These were my smallest ones yet.Hence the new mould.
They spread out to a triangular shape,flew about 160m (150g total weight,too heavy) and two of the 3 glans that flew horizontally went less than 40 meters apart at that distance.Slinging at an advancing army they would have had a good coverage.The distances covered by the two horizontal must have been very close,the third one on top probably hit a bit further ~20 meters. I think such a spray would have been useful on many ancient battlefields.
About point c. i agree, slinging 3 at once might give less distance,although 30g is less than ideal for most modern slingers,even with thin,light cords it puts very little tension on the cords.3x30g=90g is way more ideal. I bet 3 would travel at least that far as 1 ,if not a bit further.
3.I was thinking of another guy very into ballistas,i've seen his experiments with shooting 14 lead glans at once with 100+ m\s. It might have been done..but slinging lead is something that's known for sure,me thinks.
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Re: The 9 gland gang mould,and multiple glans at o
Reply #14 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 5:58pm
 
Excellent work, jlasud, really.  If I were an ancient slinger using lead glandes I would probably use 30 gram ammo.  I agree that having lots of ammo would be a good thing and 30 grams slung well would certainly do serious damage to my enemies.  Think of how small a .22 bullet is.  It's much smaller than a 30 gram gland yet it can kill.
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