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Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts (Read 49125 times)
Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #30 - Jan 31st, 2012 at 5:08pm
 
Hallo Dave!
Feel free to contact me whenever you want! Don't be afraid, I love to share knowledge!
Plus, I'm very into European prehistory (especially Upper and Middle Paleolithic), for I live in one of the most studied Regions in Italy; an article I wrote about some Middle Paleolithic/Mesolithic/Neolithic and Copper Age things we found during our surveys is going to be published soon, I'll be glad to send it to you as soon as the book is published!
Meanwhile, ask whatever you want without scruples!!  Cheesy
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David Morningstar
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #31 - Feb 1st, 2012 at 4:21am
 

When you look at slingers from slinging cultures, almost all use one or two rotations in a horizontal or angled plane followed by a sidearm or overarm throw.

This is a typical example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pofjXqod774

Anywhere between 100 to 200 yards range is common with stone ammo, although further is possible.
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #32 - Feb 1st, 2012 at 7:14am
 
I think it only took us about 3 hours to get to danebury from my house (geographical centre of england)
But it's probably a bit too public for practical experiments.

Unless of course you can get the local historical society on side (small museum nearby we also visited)
And then we might be able to have the fort for the day - that would be fun Smiley
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #33 - Feb 1st, 2012 at 7:52am
 
Damn I'd LOVE to join!
But I can't afford it right now  Angry
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #34 - Feb 1st, 2012 at 9:11am
 
I'm not sure we'll be able to use an open-to-the-public hillfort, for safety reasons among others. So I'm thinking of approaching landowners with forts on their land or maybe just finding some slopes that replicate the different type of rampart. However, I will be discussing it with English Heritage and others, so you never know.

Before doing the experiment, though, I think just a visit to two or three sites not far apart, to get a couple of you expert slingers to comment on the suitability of the features. Wessex (Hants/Dorset/Wilts) is favourite because there are numerous accessible sites just a few miles apart.  I guess we could video the visit for others to comment on, too. I will also (eventually) "define" the slopes, distances, and so on and that would enable comment from the interested slingers from elsewhere.

It seems that you need a flat stance - a "fighting platform" -  at the top of the rampart to operate from. (That makes "simulating" a rampart more complex than just finding a hill.) One question is, from such a platform is it easier/more effective to sling down a steep slope (say 50 degrees) than down a vertical wall? In that case, it's not range that is the issue, but whether the angle inhibits the power you'd need to be effective against attackers in the ditch.

Range (and accuracy) would be more relevant when defending against attackers who were outside the second (or third) rampart.  Even then, in most cases the defenders would have a height advantage due to the hillside location of the fort. There is evidence (e.g. from Julius Caesar's writings) that barrages of stones were used by attackers to clear the ramparts of defenders, before attacking the gates, so I'm interested in the attackers' perspective on the ramparts, too.

Pete
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #35 - Feb 1st, 2012 at 9:38am
 
Sorry Pete, don't you have a drawing of the profile section of one of these hillforts?
I have one for the Italian gradinas that I'd like to post, just have to find it...
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #36 - Feb 1st, 2012 at 12:21pm
 
Quote:
t seems that you need a flat stance - a "fighting platform" -  at the top of the rampart to operate from. (That makes "simulating" a rampart more complex than just finding a hill.) One question is, from such a platform is it easier/more effective to sling down a steep slope (say 50 degrees) than down a vertical wall? In that case, it's not range that is the issue, but whether the angle inhibits the power you'd need to be effective against attackers in the ditch. 


Not necessarily - it's easy enough to just sling over something while hiding behind it.

If the slope below the fort was full of enemy - that would make a lot more sense than sticking your head above the 'parapet' where someone could take a shot at you.

With heavier missiles in particular blind shooting would make sense. Even if you don't hit someone directly the rock could do damage on it's way downslope.

Not a clue where wessex is without looking at a map- but I'm up for a wander around Smiley 
I'll even bring the human trebuchet: very large pouch. To demonstrate hidden heavy stone bombardment Smiley
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #37 - Feb 1st, 2012 at 1:30pm
 
I like this topic. It's interesting. I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. I live on the American plains, so there's not a lot of hills around here to throw from. I have however had numerous opportunities to throw off of creek bottom drop offs and once even off of a 120 foot tall grain elevator while I was on top of it doing an internet antenna install. While the height definitely allows for an increase in range, I found the angles for straight line accuracy quite awkward. Especially on the elevator where a guardrail simulated something resembling a parapet wall. In order to get the angle of release right with the rail in front of me my shots had to take a high lobbing throw and were more on a straight down drop by the time they hit the ground. I would be interested to know the ballistics on this as far as how much energy is lost when the stone is on almost a straight down fall. When throwing at closer range to the drop off, however, (less than 100 yards give or take) straight line shots become much easier with more of an overhead release. This effect, to my somewhat educated guess, would allow attackers to get close enough under cover of shields to negate the added range advantage of the defenders. With the angle of incoming projectiles being predictable and somewhat overhead like a continuous rain of stones. The ballistics of lead would also give whichever side is using it a very clear advantage. For defenders it allows a more straight line accurate throw from the parapets, in addition to longer range lobbing throws. making shield defense against such attacks tougher, unless the enemy is advancing in a phalanx type interlocking shield formation a-la Greek and Roman tactics. For an assaulting force using lead while defenders are using stones, this would even further negate the range advantage of defenders throwing from an elevated position.
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #38 - Feb 1st, 2012 at 1:44pm
 
As I understand it, there was a stockade wall on top of the rampart all the way around.
There was also a substantial structure on either side of the gate.

There is a good story linked somewhere describing an attack on a fort in the Pacific islands, both sides using slings. I will try and find the link...

(EDIT)

Here is the link  http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1220197274/0#0
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #39 - Feb 2nd, 2012 at 2:48pm
 
I personally reckon one of the more effective ways slings could have been used en masse back in those times would be the blind lob C_A described. I remember hearing once that ammo up to 500g was used by some Balearic slingers. Now although this would have been the very top limit, when just throwing a lob underarm into the sky, its very do able, and with that weight falling a good height, even a shield will do nothing.
Assuming other people threw even 300g+ rocks in a similar way, with very little training I think most people could manage 50m+ with good height added to that to crush anything it falls on. It doesnt take much training to lob into a rough area and en masse it could be very effective.

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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #40 - Feb 3rd, 2012 at 9:33am
 
Does anyone know if every rampart/parapet of a hillfort was topped with a palisade? If so, did it present a solid, continuous front? Was it merely a picket? How high were these palisades? Waist high? Chest high? Head high? I think this will have a bearing on how slingers would defend the work. Did the Iron Age folks utilize any form of obstacles besides the parapet and palisade? Abattis? Caltrops? Trous-de-loup?
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #41 - Feb 3rd, 2012 at 10:02am
 
For what concerns Italian defenses, palisades have been hypotized for every parapet, but since not a single Gradina has been archaeologically excavated, we don't know it for sure.
I find the idea presumable, though.
By the way, I'm still looking for that section drawing, can't really find it...
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #42 - Feb 3rd, 2012 at 12:51pm
 
It's generally thought that there would be a pallisade or similar on the top of the inner rampart, but I'm not sure that it's proven. Before reading David's comments, I was wondering if it might hinder slingers too much.

Abatis could have been used, but wouldn't leave archaeology, and I don't recall this being mentioned - they'd maybe rely on the outer works to slow attackers down and/or keep them distant - but Finney suggests they might have let scrub grow inside the outer earth works, to hinder attacking slingers.

However, there are some cases of chevaux-de-frise in stone and speculation that wooden stakes could have been used similarly; they tend to be in specific approaches rather than for all-round defence. I do think, however, that they are convincing re defence - what else could they be for?

I think of caltrops as being anti-cavalry, and they'd probably not charge hillforts, but I suppose you could use them against lightly shod people. Don't know of any evidence for them.

The written accounts relating to Britain or similar Celts are very sparse (G J Caesar) and only come right at the end of the period of interest and when already affected by Roman influence. So we're relying on archeaological remains. I'll keep my eye open for anything that could be interpreted this way, in future reading.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #43 - Feb 3rd, 2012 at 1:13pm
 
Dear Pete, I think it's time for me to explain you some of the (few) evidences that characterize one of the most ancient military settlement of Italy (and the whole Europe): the Copper Age settlement of Conelle di Arcevia.
Imagine a plain at the top of a very low hill (around 15 meters high), surrounded by other higher hills on the South, West and Northern sides, and by other higher ones, but even more distant of the first ones, on the East side.
To tell the truth, Conelle di Arcevia was located in a valley, but the hills around are all well away from the settlement, out of archer's range, for example.
There're two small rivers in this valley, that connect at a certain point.
The plain of Conelle di Arcevia begin from the junction of these two rivers, and proceeds South for about half a kilometer.
After this distance, the ground lower slowly until it reach the river's level.
So you look from above, and what do you see? a wedge of ground between two rivers.
What did these Copper Age people do? They dug a V-shaped moat on the South side of their settlement, actually making a barrier that transformed the wedge into a triangle.
The moat is 120 meters long, 8 meters deep and 7 meters wide. It's made of two semicircles, with their convex part facing the outer side of the plain. This made archaeologists believe that such a design was thought to allow archers and slingers a crossed fire against incoming forces. The moat has just an entrance, which was in the middle of the two semicircles.
It's also plausible that, while digging the moat, Copper Age people had piled the extra soil on the inside part of the moat, so that they could reinforce it with an artificial scarp, which could also have been further fortified with a stockade.
This was perhaps the defense adopted for the South side of Conelle.
And what about the East and West sides of the triangle?
They were naturally delimited by the two small rivers, plus the hill's slopes, while not that high, are steep nonetheless. Blackberry bushes and brambles grows naturally along the rivers, forming an additional defense. Curiously, the ground along the triangle's borders does not show signs of any artificial intervention, such a scarp.
Perhaps the sides were fairly well protected by nature, or perhaps they added stockades to them.
I don't know if this description could help you, but I bet it won't disturb  Smiley
Next time I'll describe you our Iron Age hillforts  Smiley
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Mauro.
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Re: Sling Defence of Iron Age Hillforts
Reply #44 - Feb 3rd, 2012 at 1:59pm
 
[quote author=kentuckythrower link=1327496223/30#40 date=132827http://slinging.org/forum/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/cry.gif9597 Did the Iron Age folks utilize any form of obstacles besides the parapet and palisade? Abattis? Caltrops? Trous-de-loup? [/quote]

I definitely think abattis would be ineffective. The abbatis consists of felled trees blocking a path to a certain area. Extensive use of these as far as I can tell wouldn't be practical for blocking foot or cavalry advances seeing as how soldiers would simply have to go around the area. It would channel movement to specific areas but the abbatis is more intended for blocking roads against mechanized units (i.e. tanks and artillery). It would Block the movement of siege weaponry however I don't think these would be used for attacking hillforts, just for the time involved in a siege. Siege weapons would have been more oriented into the attack on a castle.   Caltrops would be effective as long as the iron resources were available. Some obstacles also offer cover to advancing troops, which would be a downside for defenders relying on volume of fire. Much of what I have stated is however speculation based on a practical mindset, not fact. So comments or corrections are welcome.
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