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Flat glans vs round cross section glans (Read 7865 times)
jlasud
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Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Sep 1st, 2011 at 1:00am
 
It's been discussed about why many of the ancient lead projectiles were flat.
Some suggest they slung multiple shots at once,so in that case they would stay better in the pouch together.
How do flat ones fly because of the spin ?They surely have more penetration than round cross-section ones.They're more like arrowheads.
Could this be the reason why ancients made them?
Were they just molding deficiencies ?
Could flat ones airglide in flight,having a longer range?
There are somewhat flat and really flat ones along with perfectly round cross section ones,which are quite rare.
I believe the almost round ones are just molding imprecisions.
What are your thoughts,experiences with them?
I'll surely be making some tests with flat ones,as they're unknown to me.
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Jaegoor
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #1 - Sep 1st, 2011 at 3:37am
 
I think which shows the answer several reasons.

The Glandes have this form because:

They were used up from a certain Sling.

They cause maximum damage in this form. A ball comes through. These Glandes have a higher One stop effect.

One can use up them in special kind.
With Spin. This is more difficult with a ball.

Nevertheless, a ball flies on.
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Thearos
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #2 - Sep 1st, 2011 at 4:48am
 
They're not flat, they look like footballs (US) or rugby balls (UK). Or did I misunderstand ?
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #3 - Sep 1st, 2011 at 5:56am
 
Thearos wrote on Sep 1st, 2011 at 4:48am:
They're not flat, they look like footballs (US) or rugby balls (UK). Or did I misunderstand ?


From what I've seen they're are elongated like a football, but also flattened so that the cross section is also oval, like a bean sinker. This means that they will not roll along either axis. I assume this was done deliberately so as to minimise the likelihood of the ammunition rolling out of the pouch prematurely. In theory, and I stress theory, this would reduce their efficiency as circular cross section gives a better cross section to mass ratio. However I doubt it would be measurable.
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #4 - Sep 1st, 2011 at 8:19am
 
Jaegoor wrote on Sep 1st, 2011 at 3:37am:
A ball comes through. These Glandes have a higher One stop effect.

.

You show me the video of shooting a ball (of your choosing) through a pigs karkass, or some other object with a similar density/structure as a human body, with a sling, and I will believe you.
Until then I say this is absolute nonsense.
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Thearos
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #5 - Sep 1st, 2011 at 9:18am
 
I've handled a few when I wrote on them a few years back already (maybe 100+), and they don't seem to me oval in cross-section rather than round-- i.e you can roll them at least some of them around, and looking at them sideways on they looked like shells or pencil points. But I may be mistaken, I must admit I didn't pay attention to this aspect.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #6 - Sep 1st, 2011 at 9:55am
 
Actually, I'm examining a lead glan I've got, and it seems to be oval, but you'd notice it only if you're looking for an oval section.
Unlike Thearos, I haven't handled so many, so take my statement with caution.
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #7 - Sep 1st, 2011 at 11:01am
 
Has anyone slung these more flattish cross-sectioned glandes? Is it possible that with lead making such a low profile ammo anyways this shape flies well and perhaps has more penetration?

You never know...sometimes things can be deceiving.  I found a stone once that was essentially like a square with a small triangle on one of the edges. It was probably 3.5 x 3 inches square not including the triangular outcropping on it. It was probably 3/4 inch thick and smooth and rounded on the corners. You would think such a stone would not fly good at all. But that thing flew like a perfect throwing star every throw. It was amazing.

Anyways, sometimes in practice things work out different than what you would expect.
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #8 - Sep 2nd, 2011 at 2:50am
 
With throws that come over the top a backspin is very commonly achieved and this produces lift on the projectile.  Have you ever tried to sling for distance with an underarm throw and noticed how the stones drop so quickly no matter how hard you sling them?  The flatter the stones, the more this is true.  This is because underhanded slinging tends to put a forward spin on the projectile and this causes it to drop quickly like a curve ball.  The rougher or more mis-shapen the surface area, the more the spin on the projectile alters its flight path.

When throwing with a throw that releases in a baseball pitch or higher sidearm type release, lift rather than drop is produced.  The backspin produced often seems to cause enough lift to neutralize the natural trajectory for a good many yards before the drop comes.  Usually the drop comes quickly at the very end of the throw after the stone has sailed out straight for a long ways. 

The same principle is used in airsoft bb guns where there is often an adjustable backspin device placed at the breach end of the barrel which puts backspin on the bb's and causes them to sail out a lot further and straighter than they otherwise would at a relatively low velocity.

I believe this is the reason for the oval cross section in glandes.  Lead is a dense material and it would take something like an oval cross section to produce the desired lift since lead has little surface area to begin with for a given weight. 

I've never done experiments with glandes other than a few fishing weights, but what I've learned from stones gives weight to this theory.  Even the lead fishing weights produce impressive distances!!  But I think one of the main advantages of the sling in ancient times was to rain lead on an approaching troop from as long a distance as possible.  This more than any other factor had to influence their design of the glandes.  If the flat glandes went further even a certain percentage of the time, then that was the potential elimination of an enemy soldier before he even got close to you.

The other thing could be that it was easier to produce oval cross sectional glandes with the types of casting moulds they were using.  If they were chiseling out rock to make the mould, a shallow pocked would have been easier to produce then a deep one. 

     
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #9 - Sep 2nd, 2011 at 5:35am
 
Whipartist wrote on Sep 2nd, 2011 at 2:50am:
The other thing could be that it was easier to produce oval cross sectional glandes with the types of casting moulds they were using.  If they were chiseling out rock to make the mould, a shallow pocked would have been easier to produce then a deep one


I thougth the very same thing.
Molds were made of stone, not clay, because it is cheaper to use a stone when you're melting a cheap metal.
Plus, we've got some molds of "glan trees", and glans seem to be flat - it really seem to be an easier shape to achieve.

Morphy, I'd like to sling my ancient glan, but I can't do it alone, I need someone to help me finding the glan after the shoot  Smiley
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jlasud
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #10 - Sep 2nd, 2011 at 5:38am
 
Backspin is not an issue with these,as it only works for spherical projectiles with success.
But whipartist had a good point about chiseling stone molds,so it would've been easier to carve out a shallow groove than a half round one.Here's a pic of a flat gland.It appears to be about twice as wide as thick:
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #11 - Sep 2nd, 2011 at 5:44am
 
Should it help, here's mine (it has a "S" on one side):

...

and here's a "glan tree":

...

found under a Hellenistic temple near Naples; it was a votive offer.
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Thearos
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #12 - Sep 2nd, 2011 at 5:55am
 
Those are pretty plump, though, and I would have thought close to round cross-section ?
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #13 - Sep 2nd, 2011 at 6:09am
 
Actually, jlasud's glans, and some of the tree's, seem to be quite rounded  Huh
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jlasud
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Re: Flat glans vs round cross section glans
Reply #14 - Sep 2nd, 2011 at 6:15am
 
But if they could carve the bolt and the inscription and have such a nice shape to it,they could surely make it round cross-sectioned.
Flat for not to roll out of the pouch doesn't seem like an issue to me,as round cross-sectioned ones stay in the pouch no problem.
Here's a pic of a flat clay one i've made,that i'll be testing:
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