Slinging.org Forum - scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...

Morphy

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Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...
Reply #15 - Jul 15^th, 2011 at 8:26pm

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Agree, this poison doesn´t sound more advanced than "corpse poison", sticking your arrows in a rotting corpse before applying. It would be a "bio" rather than a "chem" weapon.
Talk about dirty fighting; not a very honorable praxis, it has no effect on the fighting capabilitiy of your not fatally hit target, but it kills him horribly days or weeks after the battle, regardless of which side won.
A cowardly pre-emptive revenge....

I'll be he first to admit I had to look up the word praxis.

Well, I agree with you about 90% here Kuggur. The only time I think it would be good though is if you or your people were not the aggressors and the war that was being waged against you was unjust. Especially if the odds were such that death was almost certain I would make the price of victory a heavy one indeed.

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greencheapsk8

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Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...
Reply #16 - Jul 16^th, 2011 at 3:13am

Masiakasaurus wrote on Jul 15^th, 2011 at 7:47pm:

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Ah, and there we disagree; I don´t think the end always justifies the means...

The ends don't justify the means; I just draw my line in the sand in a different place than you. .

To me, then justification depends on the end.
If the torture/misery of one gives accurate information to stop the misery/ death of many, then the end is justified.

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HurlinThom

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Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...
Reply #17 - Jul 16^th, 2011 at 11:14am

It's easy to make judgements about the Scythians from a 21st Century viewpoint, but their world was very different from ours. The arrow business most likely was as much a psychological weapon as a physical one. The more your enemies fear you the better. If they fear you they aren't as likely to fight as hard. The easier the victory the fewer casualties your side suffers.

Ever wonder why Achilles died from an arrow to the heel? The only logical explanation is that it was poisoned.

Not so sure that the modern Iranians are directly descended from the Scythians. The Greeks dealt with both Scythian and Persians and had different names for each (called the Persians Medes, but that's a different story).

The shooting arrows while fleeing is called a Parthian shot. Were the Parthians Persians with a lithsp? Wink

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Masiakasaurus

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Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...
Reply #18 - Jul 16^th, 2011 at 11:36am

The borders of Iran include more than a couple of historic empires including the Scythians, Persians, Parthians, Medians, and more. It would be interesting to know if the poison arrows were something that all Iranians did, or if it was just the Scythians.

Edited:

I didn't see your Parthian joke until after I wrote my post.

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jlasud

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Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...
Reply #19 - Jul 17^th, 2011 at 2:47am

War was always about fear,hate and death,so saying things like "unmanly","coward","honor","crude" is just...useless.They were fighting each other with whatever they wouldn't wanted to be hit by...and sh*t,piss and other stuff was readily available,so they used it.It's not the method is miserable ,war itself is miserable,me thinks.Of course there are different degrees of being miserable,but still the essence remains the same.I think man have war almost like coded in there genes over the long time we've been doing it.Since my childhood i was fascinated by weapons, and stuff,but slowly realized it's all crap,and a wise man doesn't deal with war,nor instruments of war.It's ok to know about these things,and i'm interested,but not fascinated by it anymore.

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greencheapsk8

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Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...
Reply #20 - Jul 17^th, 2011 at 6:08am

Masiakasaurus wrote on Jul 16^th, 2011 at 11:36am:

The borders of Iran include more than a couple of historic empires including the Scythians, Persians, Parthians, Medians, and more. It would be interesting to know if the poison arrows were something that all Iranians did, or if it was just the Scythians.

Edited:

I didn't see your Parthian joke until after I wrote my post.

I assume that technology spreads? So evivitably if the technology is good, it always spreads.
Even under massive security it still spreads. If the weapon is effective that is.
Still follows that rule now actually. The nuclear bomb, the Hydrogen bomb, the spy satellites, the nuclear cruise missiles, the unmanned drones, the hypersonic lightsabers, the giant space ship shaped like a moon........ oh wait those last two arent here yet! Grin

EDIT: the point being that even if the Iranians invented it, the Scythians probably picked it up, as well as most of the other nearby tribes.

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Thunder Chief

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Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...
Reply #21 - Jul 19^th, 2011 at 2:58am

jlasud wrote on Jul 17^th, 2011 at 2:47am:

a wise man doesn't deal with war,nor instruments of war.It's ok to know about these things,and i'm interested,but not fascinated by it anymore.

Why not? I can understand a wise man not loving war, but war is a human constant and if you ignore it, it won't go away, you'll just be killed or conquered by someone less wise than you are.

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HurlinThom

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Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...
Reply #22 - Jul 19^th, 2011 at 4:01pm

Thunder Chief wrote on Jul 19^th, 2011 at 2:58am:

jlasud wrote on Jul 17^th, 2011 at 2:47am:

a wise man doesn't deal with war,nor instruments of war.It's ok to know about these things,and i'm interested,but not fascinated by it anymore.

Why not? I can understand a wise man not loving war, but war is a human constant and if you ignore it, it won't go away, you'll just be killed or conquered by someone less wise than you are.

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who do not."

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bigkahuna past-moderator Offline Posts: 3894 Delaware, USA Gender:	Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons... Reply #23 - Jul 19^th, 2011 at 9:09pm What about all the poison arrows and blowgun darts used by S outh American Natives. These were usually tipped with poison obtained from local tree frogs.
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Morphy Slinging.org Moderator Offline Checkmate Posts: 8102	Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons... Reply #24 - Jul 19^th, 2011 at 9:24pm I remember reading somewhere about the Vietcong dipping blowgun darts in canned food that they had punctured and let rot. Apparently the idea was botulinum would breed in the cans and the botulinum toxin would then coat the darts.
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jlasud

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Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...
Reply #25 - Jul 21^st, 2011 at 12:01pm

Thunder Chief wrote on Jul 19^th, 2011 at 2:58am:

Why not? I can understand a wise man not loving war, but war is a human constant and if you ignore it, it won't go away, you'll just be killed or conquered by someone less wise than you are.

You can stay away from war,and fighting.You may be called a coward,but at least a a living coward not a brave dead.Of course many survive who fight but after some time of my life spent thinking about fighting,tactics,war etc. i realized that indeed your thoughts attract situations,and by hate and fear and preparing for war or fighting your getting it.As soon as you stop thinking,preparing etc. it goes away.I know you don't believe this,i did not either.It's impossible to explain it fully,one has to experience it.I'm not blaiming,teaching,convincing anyone,it's just my experience that i kind of answered for your question: Why not?

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jlasud

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Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...
Reply #26 - Jul 21^st, 2011 at 12:04pm

HurlinThom wrote on Jul 19^th, 2011 at 4:01pm:

Thunder Chief wrote on Jul 19^th, 2011 at 2:58am:

jlasud wrote on Jul 17^th, 2011 at 2:47am:

a wise man doesn't deal with war,nor instruments of war.It's ok to know about these things,and i'm interested,but not fascinated by it anymore.

Why not? I can understand a wise man not loving war, but war is a human constant and if you ignore it, it won't go away, you'll just be killed or conquered by someone less wise than you are.

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who do not."

Haha that's a good one,i truely like it but i believe that you can plow for yourself even if there are some guys running around with swords..If not literally plowing,but maybe foraging in the woods.

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kuggur slingdog

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Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...
Reply #27 - Jul 21^st, 2011 at 2:20pm

HurlinThom wrote on Jul 16^th, 2011 at 11:14am:

It's easy to make judgements about the Scythians from a 21st Century viewpoint, but their world was very different from ours. The arrow business most likely was as much a psychological weapon as a physical one. The more your enemies fear you the better. If they fear you they aren't as likely to fight as hard. The easier the victory the fewer casualties your side suffers.

Well in that case enlighten me, what is so different with present day armed conflicts, wars...?

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HurlinThom

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Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...
Reply #28 - Jul 21^st, 2011 at 2:48pm

Quote:

HurlinThom wrote on Jul 16^th, 2011 at 11:14am:

It's easy to make judgements about the Scythians from a 21st Century viewpoint, but their world was very different from ours. The arrow business most likely was as much a psychological weapon as a physical one. The more your enemies fear you the better. If they fear you they aren't as likely to fight as hard. The easier the victory the fewer casualties your side suffers.

Well in that case enlighten me, what is so different with present day armed conflicts, wars...?

For one thing, for steppe nomads war was almost a constant. If not full-out war, raids on the neighbors for their livestock and other portable goods, maybe a few women, too. I think the Icelanders haven't engaged in that sort of activity for a few centuries.

In modern war there's at least a notion of avoiding non-combattant casualties. With the Scythians you'd only worry about their value as slaves.

If I were to take the time I could come up with more, but this should be enough to back up my viewpoint.

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kuggur slingdog

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Re: scythian arrowheads and chem weapons...
Reply #29 - Jul 21^st, 2011 at 4:09pm

HurlinThom wrote on Jul 21^st, 2011 at 2:48pm:

For one thing, for steppe nomads war was almost a constant. If not full-out war, raids on the neighbors for their livestock and other portable goods, maybe a few women, too. I think the Icelanders haven't engaged in that sort of activity for a few centuries.

Ah I didn´t realize I was supposed to take your remark personally. Apart from the fact I am not an Icelander, I just live here, I could name a lot of area´s/countries in the world where war is "almost a constant".

HurlinThom wrote on Jul 21^st, 2011 at 2:48pm:

In modern war there's at least a notion of avoiding non-combattant casualties. With the Scythians you'd only worry about their value as slaves.

This is sadly enough not true. Enough conflicts nowadays where the non-combatants are specifically targeted (and I am not talking about "collateral damage"). Current wars in Africa, the Israelian/Palestinian conflict are sad exemples.

HurlinThom wrote on Jul 21^st, 2011 at 2:48pm:

If I were to take the time I could come up with more, but this should be enough to back up my viewpoint.

It isn´t; as is easily demonstrated your claim that certain things aren´t actual anymore does not hold true.

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